Okay, but you don't have counter-evidence. Yes, kids are different, but YES, we also know that younger children generally desire sleep and wake earlier, and teens desire sleep and wake LATER than adults. Biologically. Why not start from there, and THEN acknowledge that everyone's different, rather than starting from the WORST principles and throw up our hands and say "we can't suit everyone, may as well screw as many people as possible!"?

Where did I suggest starting "from the WORST principles"?

What I would suggest is that there is not a Pareto-optimal solution here short of redesigning how schooling works entirely...

So, maybe they would benefit from an earlier bedtime? Not being snarky, am a parent myself.

It's possible. They are generally in bed by 8:30. We have tried experimenting with pushing it back to 8 and that did not have an obvious effect on their mornings and did make evenings a lot more miserable. Going even earlier than 8 is not really feasible given that dinner generally can't happen until 6pm.

(Our no-longer-elementary-schooler, by the way, never really had this problem. He just seems to sleep a lot less in general.... kids are different.)

Just an idea - you could try putting them to bed 15 min earlier every few days, and if they have trouble sleeping put on a short kids audiobook. Two of the most peaceful I know of from Audible are “The Tailor of Gloucester” read by Meryl Streep and “The Little House”.

Also depends on how young they are, if they are of reading age, then putting them to bed a little earlier and then allowing them to read for 15-20 minutes on their own can also be another way of calming them down.

Some of the kids mindfulness podcasts (Peace Out as an example) are also good for this kind of thing

One is of reading age, one is just about there.

The one of reading age is already reading after he's in bed. The hard part is getting him to stop and actually go to sleep.

I will look into the podcasts; thank you for the suggestion!

Scripture Lullabies is really great too - very peaceful & soothing.

Anecdotally based on my kid (n=1), stopping screen time about an hour before bedtime helps.

However, she still seems wired to fall sleep at a certain time, and we finally decided that fighting biology is a losing battle. The strategy of moving bedtime a little bit earlier each day didn't work at all.

There's definitely no screen time involved anywhere near bedtime. But yes, I'm pretty sure it would not help if there were!

> maybe they would benefit from an earlier bedtime?

One can try but you will be limited by biology: The problem is that our internal clocks are reset by daylight. You can't just shift yourself to another timezone, since your circadian rhythm will always set itself back to the respective local time. So if your brain prefers you to go to sleep and to wake up at certain points it will always be relative to "local (sunlight) time", not relative to human clock time.

If the schools are fun and a great experience, the kids would wake up at 5 for school. The schools are so boring and useless, the kids obviously find no use or interest in attending them.

The kids are very happy to _go_ to school once they've woken up enough. It's that first 20 minutes after we start trying to wake them up that are miserable.