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Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by btown on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:25AM (#18609008)
A world in which companies are not allowed to selectively withhold proprietary data from some competitors, and form partnerships with others, is a world that suboptimally promotes innovation and economic growth.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by CPLX on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:45AM (#18609252)
That's a statement that requires evidence and proof.

Market fundamentalists are so used to advancing arguments like this without being challenged that they have become almost completely divorced from the scientific method entirely.

Maybe being forced to share this kind of proprietary data, in this specific type of circumstance, will actually promote a more diverse marketplace with higher innovation. Maybe it won't.

Either way you don't just get to assert it.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:13AM (#18609546)
You're not a "fundamentalist" because you mention the fundamentals of a field of study. It's impossible to have a discussion about anything if some things are not taken as axiomatic.

And given that the person you're responding to is stating something that most economists would agree with, I think the impetus is on you to tear it down with "the scientific method" if you think the prevailing wisdom is wrong.

TLDR: don't provide proof for flat-earthers.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by CPLX on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:20PM (#18610304)
I have a degree in economics and I disagree with it.

If you were in fact an economist yourself, perhaps you would have recognized market fundamentalism as a term with a specific meaning, often used by economists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_fundamentalism

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:47PM (#18610577)
That's not a term of art in economics.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ionised on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:30AM (#18609753)
No, you're a fundamentalist if you stick to an ideology (e.g. trickle-down) in spite of all evidence suggesting it is highly flawed.

> It's impossible to have a discussion about anything if some things are not taken as axiomatic.

You mean you personally find it impossible to have a discussion with someone who disagrees with you on the axioms of economics because it means you can't frame the argument in your own terms, which would be that there is no alternative to what you are espousing.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:42AM (#18609875)
You don't actually know my views or what I'd espouse, so I'm curious about your hostility here :)

My only point was that you may have better success railing against the conventional wisdom by providing an actual argument that it's wrong, not by ranting and raving about the existence of prevailing wisdom itself, and demanding that everyone provide a detailed proof every time they reference it.

You should check out the works of Milton Friedman, you might find them interesting!

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ionised on Thursday December 06, 2018 @09:29AM (#18618281)
I'm very aware of Friedman's work and I think it's time we all stopped listening to the words of that fascist-apologist hack.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by notahacker on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:47AM (#18609271)
A world in which data monopolies and platform companies selectively withdraw much smaller companies' access to their services based on whether they wish those companies to fail or not probably isn't one which optimally promotes innovation and economic growth though.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:14AM (#18609557)
Facebook is not a data monopoly, unless you take "data monopoly" to mean "has a set of a data that no one else does", in which case everyone is a data monopoly.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by notahacker on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:18AM (#18609608)
Nobody else has a comparable dataset on a comparable scale. Microsoft wasn't the only company supplying operating systems in the 1990s either.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:28AM (#18609730)
Comparable dataset of what, exactly? Of Facebook's internal user data?

Think about how much data Amazon has about all the suppliers and products they've sold over the last twenty years. Should they be forced to hand it over to anyone who wants it just because of the fact that its size and exclusivity makes it very valuable?

What about the governments databases on everything under the sun? Should all of that be public?

Maybe the answer to the above questions is yes, I don't know, but I don't think it's axiomatic.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by notahacker on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:05PM (#18610144)
Nobody is suggesting everyone has a right to Facebook or any other company's data (just like nobody seriously suggested MS shouldn't be able to impose any restrictions on OEM Windows installations). They're suggesting that if a company sets itself up as a provider of data and other platform services to encourage everyone else in the market to become dependent upon it then selectively pulls the plug on the most successful companies or forces them into deeper partnerships, it's definitely harming the ecosystem. And that if Facebook has done that, it might also have fallen foul of laws which are there to stop that sort of practice.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:56PM (#18610677)
I definitely see those arguments being made (in this thread, in fact), but that may not be the argument you're making.

I think the issue I have is with the idea that Facebook is successful, and therefore can no longer prevent their competitors from blatantly taking advantage of them. But I'm not sure where to draw the line.

If Visa and Mastercard decided for whatever reason that they wanted to kill some small banking chain and not allow payments for them or their customers to go through their network, that would be bad. But I don't think that means that they have to let an upstart competitor credit card startup have access to the huge multi-billion-dollar network they've built up, does it? Even if they might extend that network to other entities that don't compete with them?

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by notahacker on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:10PM (#18610819)
I'd be pretty concerned if Visa introduced a Visa Mobile Payments platform and withdrew functionality from the fastest growing payment apps because the mobile payments sector broadly competes with the credit card sector. I think that's a closer analogy than either of your examples
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @01:20PM (#18610924)
Well, that'd be the only use case for that platform, right? Maybe a better example would be if they explicitly told companies who joined the platform that they couldn't compete with Visa's core business, and then Mastercard signed up because they have a mobile payments division. Would Visa be justified in kicking them off?
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ionised on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:23AM (#18609664)
That's not what a monopoly is.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by dyeje on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:33AM (#18609116)
I'm not advocating for anything here, but isn't hurting innovation and economic growth exactly what FB is doing by snuffing out promising products based on analytics?
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by spunker540 on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @12:13PM (#18610228)
I think when you choose to sell your products on Amazon, or host your videos on YouTube or use FB login for your app, you're necessarily taking a risk by depending on a third-party for your success. It's possible to create your own login system or host your own videos or own your own e-commerce site and there are even a whole host of valid competitors for all these services too.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by dnadler on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:46AM (#18609260)
Would it be better if, instead of analytics, they flipped a coin?
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by fipple on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:33AM (#18609774)
Yes, because if they had to flip a coin they would buy fewer companies, which would lead to less market consolidation.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ForHackernews on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:55AM (#18609359)
I know you're being facetious, but it might actually be?

In nature, random mutation leads to greater genetic diversity and speciation. In some mathematical optimizations, introducing random noise can help avoid getting stuck in local maxima.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by notahacker on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:52AM (#18609321)
Using analytics to restrict apps based on their popularity - if that's what Facebook did - is definitely much more anti-competitive behaviour and even more likely to hurt growth than simply being arbitrary or completely random in their decision making. But yes, a non-arbitrary policy of allowing developers access if they followed a transparent set of rules would obviously be better.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by kevmo on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:39AM (#18609179)
Economic growth is overrated when it only goes to 1% of people.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by najarvg on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:05AM (#18609473)
Hidden in a lot of these economic growth arguments is an unstated assumption of the effectiveness of trickle-down economics which itself has been shown to be ineffective many times (see - https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down-economics-theory-eff...)
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:17AM (#18609594)
And hidden in a lot of these anti-economic growth arguments is an unstated assumption of the effectiveness of planned economies, which itself has been shown to be ineffective many times :)
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ionised on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:24AM (#18609676)
Are those the only two options you can see? Trickle-down economics or communism?
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ryanwaggoner on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:31AM (#18609762)
Planned economies need not be communist, and no, but I was attempting (probably poorly) to draw attention to the ridiculousness of the argument that being pro-economic growth requires believing in trickle down economics.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by dec0dedab0de on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:32AM (#18609082)
A world in which companies are not allowed to selectively withhold proprietary data from some competitors, and form partnerships with others, is a world that suboptimally promotes innovation and economic growth.

Maybe economic growth, but how is innovation promoted by limiting access?

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by dao- on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:36AM (#18609136)
This my be true as a rule of thumb. Different rules apply to monopolies (in most developed countries anyway), as different dynamics come into play and hinder innovation.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by kitd on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:29AM (#18609053)
... so long as everyone is complying with the law.
Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by Jyaif on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:37AM (#18609153)
That's a rehash of the argument against the existence of proprietary tech (and patents).

It also has the same limitations: If there's no competitive advantage to having proprietary data, then what's the point of developing the tech and services to try and obtain it?

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by ionised on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @11:33AM (#18609773)
I think you've answered your own question.

There wouldn't be any point, and it would be totally fine.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by PavlovsCat on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @10:33AM (#18609112)
How so?