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Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by decasteve on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:10AM (#18582353)
This breaks the social contract of the web. If you publish on the web (over HTTP) using HTML (with or without css+js) then you respect the concept of a User-Agent that renders the content on behalf of the user. If you wish to get around this then create another file format and protocol and application/plugin to do so — one that enforces the DRM for the owner. Don’t take agency away from User-Agent.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by solatic on Sunday December 02, 2018 @12:35PM (#18583338)
Precisely this. Website operators who wish to establish effective paywalls with publicly indexed content need a way to cryptographically authenticate web crawlers. That means working with search engines to establish a standard for registering and authenticating authorized crawlers.

If Google isn't interested in such a standard (because it reduces the quality of open search results) then that's the publishers' problem, not Google's or users'.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by Angostura on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:20AM (#18582391)
Alternatively, the add-ons break the social contract, whereby content creators request payment for their content.

If you visit stuff on the web, you respect the concept of a social contract between you and the provide. Don’t try to circumvent their wishes.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by austincheney on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:07AM (#18582580)
HTTP is public by default and SMTP is private by default. The laws respecting this in the US are pretty solid, especially for email. In the US privacy generally trumps public access which allows email to retain its private by default status even if served over HTTP (web mail).

That said anybody attempting to make parts of content non-pubic in HTTP without appropriate security restrictions are void the protections of law. The remedy for this is to ensure necessary security is in place so that non-pubic content is limited to account and session, which then puts part of the burden on the end user to ensure they restrict the credentials that provide access.

Content, not already covered, served over HTTP without the necessary security in place is not private.

There is a clause in the DCMA that makes it illegal to circumvent security controls. The stipulation there is that the security controls in question must be adequate and reasonable. Dropping a CSS model over some content is not a valid security control, and thus has no legal protection. Of course everything regarding DCMA is open to argument at legal expense.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by otterley on Monday December 03, 2018 @02:09AM (#18586905)
Attorney here! (Not providing legal counsel, though.)

It’s a common misconception that the word “effective,” as used in the respective legislation, was intended to mean “successful” or “always cause.” Rather, it’s always been interpreted to mean, “is designed to have the effect of.”

The fact that the measure is not always successful or is breakable does not make the law no longer applicable; that would be an absurd result. The law isn’t interpreted literally when the result would be absurd; this is doctrine that goes back to at least 1892 and even further back to English common law. See, e.g., Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892).

Engineers too often assume that the text of the law means what they think it means. This is one of those cases where a lack of legal education serves them poorly and leads them to incorrect conclusions.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by austincheney on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:19AM (#18589924)
Quick question. If one group intends a grossly inadequate effort to be a layer of security and another party ignores that effort who is in error? It could be argued that if the supposed security measure is so poorly conceived the bypassing party presumed it to be an error and thus used their software knowledge to mitigate the defect. On one hand there is an intentional barrier to restrict access to content while on the other hand the intention is to serve content and so the bypassing party assists that service intention.

I am of the bias that a space of technology cannot be summarily redefined by a single group interest merely to compensate their financial insecurity.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by otterley on Monday December 03, 2018 @11:49AM (#18590217)
To make a long story short, the law to date has always been on the side of the property owner/rights holder insofar as these sorts of questions are concerned. You can’t presume that just because the door is swinging open in the breeze that it constitutes an invitation to enter or that you can fix the defect on someone else’s behalf without repercussions. Context matters in the law, just as it does in the real world.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by cabalamat on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:16AM (#18582626)
> If you visit stuff on the web, you respect the concept of a social contract between you and the provide.

If I send a site an http GET request, and that site responds by giving me some data, then that site has given me implied consent to look at the data. If they don't want me to look at it, they shouldn't have given me it.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by kjsthree on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:32AM (#18582975)
^ THIS! I don’t see how the situation is in any way more complicated. Real-world analogies can get pretty squirrelly but it would be quite literally like the following.

Man standing on the sidewalk outside a store yells into the store at the shopkeeper “hey there, can I have some free fish?”

Shopkeeper yells back “sure!” and tosses a fish to the man on the sidewalk.

Add more yelling back and forth for TLS handshake.

At this point, the man on the sidewalk can do whatever he wants with the fish. It was freely given.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by Mirioron on Monday December 03, 2018 @12:52AM (#18586638)
Off topic: isn't this how user privacy works too though? People complain about companies like Google and Facebook "stealing their data," but it's their browsers sending out the data. If users don't want Google to have the data then they shouldn't send it to Google.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by brokenmachine on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:17PM (#18604723)
This could have implications for Google.

Basically this example, if accepted in law, would mean that if you want your data to be private then Google would be expected to respect that, even if you sent them that data in the clear.

It's a ridiculous outcome.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by ric2b on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @02:40PM (#18602946)
Yes it is, and that's why several browsers have been working hard to protect user privacy without impacting convenience too much.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by Angostura on Monday December 03, 2018 @07:02AM (#18588098)
I walk into a shop, the shop keeper holds the door open for me. I place an article in my pocket and leave without paying.

Presumably, there's implied consent for me to to that? yes?

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by cabalamat on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @11:22AM (#18600809)
> I place an article in my pocket and leave without paying.

The analogy would be if the shopkeeper (i.e. web server) picks up an article and puts it in your pocket.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by nothis on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:37AM (#18582461)
"We're sending data to your computer but you mustn't look! Promise!"

I'm not sure how the addon worked, if there's some trickery going on, but I'm long waiting for a lawsuit against ad blockers that could get heated.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by jeremyjh on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:54AM (#18582801)
This has nothing to do with ad blockers, or indeed advertising at all. The way it works is they set the user-agent to one used by search engines. The website thinks you are Google, so they give you the content for free because they want Google to index their proprietary content.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by mathnmusic on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:15AM (#18582893)
How long before Google switches to digitally signed crawling requests?
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by naasking on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:12AM (#18582611)
> Alternatively, the add-ons break the social contract, whereby content creators request payment for their content.

That's what access control is for. If you don't secure your content, you don't get to whine that someone is reading without paying.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by pedrocr on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:26AM (#18582423)
> Alternatively, the add-ons break the social contract, whereby content creators request payment for their content.

The site is free to not emit any content before payment is assured. The reason these add-ons are possible is that these sites are trying to have their cake and eat it to. They want to implement the paywall in the user agent so they can still get their content in Google. At the same time some of them are trying to argue for payments from Google for linking to their content. The situation is a mess but it's not about social contracts at all.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by giornogiovanna on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:35AM (#18582454)
Anybody who tries to show me ads clearly respects neither my time nor my money, so why would I respect theirs? Anyway, getting angry at ad-blocking is pretty silly - it's as if someone threw a pamphlet at me while I was talking to them, and then yelled at me because I didn't read it.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by Zak on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:29AM (#18582436)
These are competing and potentially incompatible social contracts. As a hacker type who's been on the web a good while, I prefer the former: the client decides how to render content, and the server should not send content it doesn't want rendered.

This doesn't necessarily prohibit the use of paywalls: the paywalled site just has to be designed so that it only sends content to clients that have provided evidence of payment rather than relying on the content being rendered in a way that prevents the reader from reading all of it.

Much as I'm for standards-compliant HTML rendering, I don't want any specific rendering encoded into law.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by betterunix2 on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:27AM (#18582424)
Sure...except that the page content is loaded before any payment is made or confirmed. Websites probably want this to happen so that some user agents will not be blocked by the paywall e.g. search engine crawlers.

Basically it sounds like some publishers want to rewrite the rules of the web to neatly and conveniently serve their interests.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by na85 on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:53AM (#18582520)
Why aren't they using proper access control, then?
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by wpietri on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:46AM (#18582491)
It's obviously not a "request" if they're making legal threats. And it's not payment they're demanding, it's the ability to track anybody who visits their site, whether or not you agree to be tracked. And it's not part of any social contract I agreed to; the (very short) history of the web is an ongoing negotiation. Paywalls were invented this decade. This plugin is part of that negotiation.

Browsers already have a mechanism for authorizing access to content. Many mechanisms, really. If a company chooses to use an unreliable mechanism, I don't think we are morally obligate to roll over and do what they want.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by IfOnlyYouKnew on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:20AM (#18582642)
This is mostly about "soft" paywalls, allowing you to read maybe a dozen articles per month without paying.

There is currently no way I know of allowing this functionality that is meaningfully "reliable". At least not without erecting new barriers such as mandatory registration (and verification).

So you, and everyone else, seem to be demanding publishers just switch to "absolute paywalls". You will then have strictly less access than before.

How is that supposed to be better?

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by wpietri on Sunday December 02, 2018 @05:57PM (#18585112)
I'm not demanding publishers switch to anything. Personally, I like the soft paywall system. I also think people who bypass it were never going to pay money, so I think publishers freaking out about people opening up an incognito window are wasting their time.

But if publisher do want absolute control over who views their content, then they should make people log in. I think that would be a mistake, but it's their mistake to make. I'm just opposed to give them legal control over what I do with my computer and any data their servers freely give me.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by Zak on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:42AM (#18582752)
Prohibiting paywall bypass software violates the principle that the client dictates how web pages are rendered, or requires carving out a special exception just for the publishing industry.

Viewed under a magnifying glass, it seems like a good thing to ensure the publishing industry can use soft paywalls, but taking a broader view, I think that breaks the web. I don't think soft paywalls are worth breaking the web, and even more broadly, governments should only regulate what users can do with data willingly sent to their computers in very exceptional circumstances.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by bopbop on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:43AM (#18583033)
This seems to be a classic example of an argument in which the ends don't justify the means (the means being allowing the lawsuits, the ends being publishers switch to "absolute paywalls")

It may mean that without a harsh letigious method, publishers do not offer "soft paywalls". It's more likely they will continue to do so to not be shut out of the market, AND we won't have waves of frivolous harsh lawsuits bankrupting independent developers.

The alternative you're proposing is to in effect be held to ransom by content providers - your argument could equally be made for any form of drm or appeasement (without root how do we know you are not recording this, wothout your location how do we know you are within our licensing area, without direct retinal scans how do we know who is really watching, etc)

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by DarthTetanus on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:56AM (#18583108)
Ideally, it would hasten society’s realization that the flow of information should not be subjected to capitalism.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by brokenmachine on Tuesday December 04, 2018 @07:24PM (#18604763)
I agree but unfortunately in reality information costs money to discover.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by DanBC on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:15AM (#18582618)
> Paywalls were invented this decade.

Compuserve paywalled all of their content way back in the 1980s.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by wpietri on Sunday December 02, 2018 @05:54PM (#18585097)
Sorry, I specifically mean the "soft" paywall, which is the kind at issue here. If these publishers had required people to log in, no browser extension could bypass that.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by visarga on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:12AM (#18582610)
> Paywalls were invented this decade.

Paywalls were used in adult industry even before the 2000's.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by monochromatic on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:55AM (#18582531)
They can request it. I don’t necessarily agree to it.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by shaki-dora on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:16AM (#18582377)
Would you make the same point for an extension that allows users to easily participate in DDOS attacks?

Edit: the link, for the willfully dense, is that some protocol specification does not imply its users’ acceptance of any and all (ab)uses possible. It’s completely different only in that you like one but not the other.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by JoshuaAshton on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:19AM (#18582388)
That's completely and utterly unrelated to what the guy said. He is talking about user-agents and the way you interpret the data you receive from a http(s) request. You're talking about DDOS attacks. There is no logical link here.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by giornogiovanna on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:48AM (#18582497)
Uh... yes? It's not very relevant, but I guess if someone was making some kind of hacktivist extension that did something like that, I wouldn't just take it down from the marketplace.
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by matt4077 on Sunday December 02, 2018 @09:24AM (#18582409)
There’s also a social contract about respect for the law. It’s arguably much older. It involves aspects like “following the spirit of the law”. Also “technical ability is not the same as permission”. It’s why the old shopkeeper’s waning ability to see is no license for you from the produce displayed outside.

(This is mostly to show that I, too, can argue with invented “contracts”).

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by decasteve on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:30AM (#18582698)
If you’re selling something called wood, and I use a saw to cut it, I expect it to work because I paid for wood. That’s the implied contract. If the person who sells the wood puts some foreign substance in it to circumvent my saw I should not get in trouble for finding another way to cut it.

I pay for my internet connection and I expect others who make use of the same network to follow its protocols. I expect HTTP to work as HTTP. If a bad network node chooses to circumvent how it works and I find a way around their circumvention then I should not be punished. On the other hand, if I republish and break copyright it is an entirely different matter.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by nkrisc on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:57AM (#18583109)
If I notice the shopkeeper gives discounts to people wearing hats, is it wrong for me to come back wearing a hat for the discount? If I notice the WSJ sends different content to different user-agents, is it wrong of me to change my user-agent?
Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by austincheney on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:11AM (#18582599)
Broad baseless claims are pedantic.

> There’s also a social contract about respect for the law.

Which law, and as it applies in which context?

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by wpietri on Sunday December 02, 2018 @10:03AM (#18582565)
There's also a social contract with government, such that laws are supposed to be thoughtfully written to achieve societal optimums, and rebalanced when that's not the case.

In practice, American legislators have to raise large amounts of money just to say in office. So it's unsurprising that they listen mainly to the concerns of people with money: https://www.vox.com/2014/4/18/5624310/martin-gilens-testing-...

We are in an age where information distribution is approximately free. And where the costs of producing information-based products has declined drastically. Paywalls are not any sort of law; they're an attempt by information producers to have their cake and eat it too. They want the abundance of the new, computer-driven world. But they want artificial scarcity, so that they can charge like they did in 1970. My sympathy is with journalists here. But that doesn't mean I have to roll over and let them break the web.

The laws in question here, the DMCA and the CFAA, are both too new and too old to be reflexively bowed to with "OMG spirit of the law!" Too new because they are obviously part of society's attempts to deal with technology, and are equally obviously driven by the interests of people who have piles of money and are trying to protect those piles. And too old because both, but especially the CFAA which was written in 1984, reflect a very early understanding of what computers are, what they're for, and how society should treat them.

As far as I'm concerned, this is an ongoing negotiation. We need to find ways for journalists to get paid. We need to find ways to have a much more informed populace. We need to preserve as much as possible of the freedom computers and networks have given to every individual.

If we want paywalls to be a part of law, then we should have a national debate about whether publishers deserve a special protection so they make all of their content available, let it be downloaded to any computer in the world, and then have that computer enforce any restrictions they think are good ones. We are not obliged to just concede that debate right at the beginning just because you think reading an infinitely replicable article already on your computer is exactly the same thing as stealing a unique piece of fruit from a blind man's store.

Re:Mozilla hit with takedown request for anti-paywall addons by dixie_land on Sunday December 02, 2018 @11:49AM (#18583061)
> technical ability is not the same as permission

Exactly. 99% arguments here are essentially the equivalent to "since Marriott/SPG are horrible at cyber security, I am ENTITLED to use stolen credit cards from their leaks."