> I never got this working from a coffee shop thing.

This is an old tradition.

Cafes, bars, tea houses, etc have served as social hubs and placed to read or work on documents (now computers) for literally thousands of years, everywhere on the planet. There's simply a social need for a space like that, because it's a more efficient usage of space to have people work on a revolving basis in a shared space than everyone have a private space of their own or not be able to work.

It's only with the modern invention of corporate coffee shops that misvalue social fabric that we see the churn happening. (PS -- those corporate stores are wrong about the short term boost from churn improving their long term fortunes, at least from what I've heard from the big ones.)

I also find it interesting you approve of one "office-like" usage -- having a chat or meeting -- but disapprove of another -- working on documents.

Actually the thing which kills this model nowadays is the obscene cost of real estate and the rentier class. Coffee shops simply can't be profitable as workspaces any more.

You still can see coffee spots as social places in developing countries.

But more people need these work spaces as they can't work in the closet like apartments they are sharing with 2-3 other people. You are correct in saying it's because cost of real estate

That makes sense. Having a meeting is disruptive to everyone else but working on documents does not. It's like an open office, the last thing you want to do is make noise and disturb people trying to get work done (ironically).

You are describing Vienna's coffee house culture. You could even have your mail received there. But part of that culture is also to avoid disturbing other guests by being unnecessarily loud.

even if you don't relate, other people have different desires and motivations and it's worth trying to understand that (for social harmony at the very least). you seem to want quiet and solitude in public places, but that's just not the norm. rather than distracting, i find cafes ideal places to work, as they have the right amount of low-recognition distraction (unlike home, where things are too quiet and my bed is so inviting).

you also seem to be looking at things negatively. here's an alternate view:

- you don't have to buy something on a timer.

- - get to know the owners/workers, and they'll enjoy your visits, no matter how long. most of the cafes i visit love it when i bring my dog for instance.

- - if a cafe is (nearly) empty, you sitting there provides natural marketing for the cafe in the form of social proof (no one likes being the only person in a business). i usually leave when i notice it getting full so others can enjoy it too, but if it's half empty, i have no qualms staying for a while without the pressure of buying something on a timer.

- stupid conversations are easy to tune out; interesting ones are the hard ones. at the very least, it feeds the superiority complex nicely.

- dogs are bundles of joy and love, and make (most) people happy.

- again, get to know and show interest in the owners/workers and develop rapport with them. they may even give you free stuff.

>dogs are bundles of joy and love, and make (most) people happy.

I'm at the point where I would pay extra for businesses and facilities that didn't allow animals. The service animal law is also being used fraudulently by so many people, I just assume it unless I can see the person is blind.

I'd prefer the opposite, businesses that don't allow children. Why can't every place be a bar and/or strip joint?

Come to Seattle. Dogs freaking everywhere. And an unusually high number of restaurants that don't allow children.

Strip joints with dogs?

Dogs like to roll and play in filth. They shouldn't be around where people are eating.

so do children.

keeping dogs away from human eating areas reduces your chances of disease by a negligible amount. you would be much better off requiring everyone to wash their hands and/or disinfect their phones upon entering.

> keeping dogs away from human eating areas reduces your chances of disease by a negligible amount.

Citation needed

zoonotic transmission (transmission between species) is not seen as serious enough by the CDC to even track it. but for comparative purposes, there are 1-2 deaths from rabies per year in the US (and infection is as likely from rodents as anything). so the burden of proof is on the dog cynics.

in any case, the primary transmission concerns are poop and mucus membrane contact. so again, the main thing you need to do is wash your hands with soap (and don't play with poop or make out with the dog).

I suspect you intended your comment to be along the lines of "different strokes for different folks", but it pretty strongly came across as "you're weird and wrong; here's the correct way to view things".

yes, it wasn't meant to make a claim on rightness or wrongness (although i can understand why it might come across that way), but to make a point about perspectives.

and that point was not so much "different strokes for different folks", but "different strokes for the same folks", as we each embody multiple perspectives and our conscious brain can choose among them (a lesson i keep learning over and over).

I'm okay with the 30-minute Wi-Fi policy, but the loud music just makes it unpleasant to be in a restaurant even for a short date/meeting/chat. If restaurants really want to make sure customers aren't staying for too long, they should just make it a matter of policy instead of ruining the experience entirely.

I could probably do it. But apart from being able to, I think it's pretty entitled to think that buying a piece of food (or something) entitles you to hours in a food place. Where people come to eat. Typically a < 60 minute event (often much, much less).

Have you never had to work while traveling? The prevalence of internet cafes has been priceless to me over the years. I travel a lot, and having cafes to stop and work at while on the road has allowed me to be a lot more flexible with travel/work arrangements. I find them very valuable.

Well yes, the business has the right to do what it did, of course. Really no way to knock it other than saying "I don't like that kind of store."

However, there are other shops that actively cultivate the kind of culture you mention. Starbucks is probably the most prominent. It's something that Starbucks deliberately promoted since inception.

You seem already aware that it's nice to have a 3rd place besides home and work. But once it's a coffee shop you don't get it?

> But once it's a coffee shop you don't get it?

Exactly. Let me explain an example. I ran into an old friend once close to a Tully's a couple of years back and went in to get some coffee and catch up. Unfortunately there was no place for us to sit down at a table because all the tables were taken by single individuals working on their laptops. One of them was actually in a conf call. So we skipped that and went to have brunch at a full blown restaurant.

Sounds like there's still demand for more coffee shops. Probably why I keep seeing more Starbucks, Peets, Philz, etc. opening all over the place.

Also, assuming you're willing to drive a couple minutes out of your way, there's usually a slightly less busy Starbucks with tables available.

Maybe there's a business opportunity here for either a new kind of chain with a different brand identity... a non-music coffee shop or something. I know a place near UC Davis where it's actually disallowed to be studying there. No laptops on the tables. But it isn't a chain.

Or an opportunity for something between a WeWork and a Starbucks, a Costco of coffee shops, maybe with a membership fee on top of the cost of drinks.

Apart from the need to buy something every X minutes, those problems are also problems in the modern office. And instead of buying something every X minutes, you have a colleague interrupt you every X minutes for some banal thing that's quite possibly not even related to the work you're doing.

> - have to overhear irrelevant stupid/mundane conversations

Quite often I get to eavesdrop on interesting conversations. Typically people launching new business ventures of various kinds.

like I said, stupid/mundane conversations