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Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by walrus01 on Sunday November 25, 2018 @09:36PM (#18530610)
Counterpoint: There's a lot of people who will stop buying stuff online with such a system, once they have been bitten by a system that has truly irrevocable payments. Part of the reason why I trust buying random $25 used video games from eBay (using Paypal) is that I know I'm about 99% certain to get my money back if it never arrives, or arrives in poor condition. I can buy a used Cisco 48-port 1000BaseT/PoE switch on eBay and know that I have some degree of buyer protection. Or I can go to Newegg and buy a new $700 monitor and trust that if something goes terribly wrong with the transaction, Visa's buyer protection/chargeback system can be engaged.

Moving to irrevocable online payments is basically the equivalent of handing a wad of cash to some stranger in a parking lot selling "new, sealed!" ipads out of the trunk of a car.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by CamTin on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:01PM (#18530724)
I totally agree with you in practical terms, but what you're really saying is that you prefer the governance offered by Paypal and the credit card networks to the governance provided by the government: IOW, it wouldn't even occur to you (or most sane people) to file a claim in court over a $25 Atari cart you tried to buy online. In the society these courts are designed to serve (peasant agricultural economies), the courts were where these issues were hashed out, and a fair bit of the "state-iness" of the state derived from its ability to solve these kinds of problems for people. Increasingly, this kind of justice is inaccessible to ordinary people except through "customer support" mechanisms at institutions like Amazon or Paypal or by tweeting at their CEOs.

One of the very real problems that cryptocurrency enthusiasts are concerned about (but IMO totally failing to actually solve) is that it seems like a really bad idea to leave such basic functions of state in the hands of difficult-or-impossible-to-regulate transnational enterprises. When will these players realize that they've got more "state-iness" than most actual states, and how will they use it?

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by spookthesunset on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:14AM (#18534339)
> When will these players realize that they've got more "state-iness" than most actual states, and how will they use it?

In the brave new decentralized "free market" crypto world you are even more fucked if you have a problem. Who do you appeal to? Who decides if your edge case is worthy of rolling back the all mighty blockchain. The DAO folk got the "hack" stuff rolled back so the "thief" no longer had their money. But what about you and your Atari that never arrived? You think the top of the crypto pyramid is gonna roll back the blockchain for you? It can literally become mob rule!

And sure, you can say "build a better smart contract", but I would say that is impossible because then you have to encode every edge case you can imagine and all the ones you can't imagine. And worse, you still need that smart contract to interface with things outside the "trusted" sandbox the smart contract lives in (i.e. meatspace)--which means you need to trust not only whatever is providing that interface but everything beyond it.

Governments exist for a reason. One of those reasons is to be where the buck stops. A society that scales to billions of people needs somebody to say "this is right / this is wrong". It needs a final authority on conflict resolution.

Smart contracts are seriously one of the stupidest things to come out of the crypto space. It really highlights how some engineers think "I am good with computer stuff, so therefore I am also good at economics, government, politics, finance, monetary policy, contract law, etc". The whole idea is really arrogant.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by ric2b on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @07:07AM (#18550880)
> In the brave new decentralized "free market" crypto world you are even more fucked if you have a problem. Who do you appeal to?

Simple, if you need the extra safety you pay for the service of an intermediary, like PayPal or eBay or (in cryptoland) Purse.io.

If you don't need the extra safety, you don't.

Escrows can be even better with Bitcoin because of multi-signature transactions, the escrow can hold the payment without holding your money, so all they can do is approve the payment or not, they can't change the destination.

Rolling back the blockchain is like going to the government to reverse your $50 transaction, it doesn't make sense.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by mantas on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:47AM (#18532631)
You won't need a claim either. Chargeback is easy. So in CryptoWorld, people should go to court and try get their money back from anonymous seller? That'd be a field day for scammers.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by CamTin on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:14AM (#18534338)
Right, this is why its totally unworkable as a solution to the problem of transnational corporations wielding too much power, and a totally crypto-ized global economy would probably just make that worse. It solves other problems fairly well (paying ransoms to anonymous cybercriminals, as an example), but also doesn't even try to solve the problem that ordinary people can't afford (or figure out how) to have small commercial disputes adjudicated by actual courts anymore, which is (IMO) the one of the reasons these corporations hold so much power.

In the neoliberal world order, government exists to ease the flow of international capital ("These regulations make it hard for us to scale our sales beyond the {US,China,Germany}. Please Mr. President, we need common-sense solutions!"). It has jettisoned its role of solving real problems for ordinary people ("Lord Fontleroy, Biff's dog killed two of my pigs.") as it once did.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by ric2b on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @07:09AM (#18550884)
If you need the extra safety you pay for the service of an intermediary, like PayPal or eBay or (in cryptoland) Purse.io.

If you don't need the extra safety, you don't.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by mantas on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:55AM (#18558942)
Many people take extra safety for granted though. Wether it's chargeback or at least knowing who you pay to pursue further legal actions.

Let me rephrase consumer safety in crypto. Food safety regulations is kinda cool and we feel safe eating out. Now crypto food comes. It's cheaper, but seller now follows it's own understanding of food safety. Or not.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by AnthonyMouse on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:02PM (#18530726)
> I can buy a used Cisco 48-port 1000BaseT/PoE switch on eBay and know that I have some degree of buyer protection.

This is a basic insurance market. You can still buy the insurance separately if you want it -- sites like eBay would undoubtedly offer it with nothing more than a checkbox for about the same fee as the credit card companies currently charge for implicitly the same thing.

The problem with the existing system is that it requires you to buy that insurance, even when it isn't necessary. If you order something from Newegg, they're ultimately going to send it or give you a refund, because they're a stable business and it's cheaper for them to make good to begin with than have a small claims court order them to. So you lose 3% in processing fees for nothing -- Newegg is no more likely to not make good than the payment processor is to not reverse the transaction.

The existing system also basically makes micropayments impossible because the transaction costs are too high, but it's not actually all that serious of a problem if you get ripped off to the tune of $0.10 from time to time. The amount is small enough that it doesn't need to be insured, and that allows you to get a good feel for what kind of purchases are scams without actually losing any significant amount of money. It also creates an opportunity for curation services to vouch for verified sellers at a lower cost than insurance would have to be to cover the losses from less savvy individual buyers not knowing who to trust (or not caring when the insurance is mandatory).

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by rcxdude on Monday November 26, 2018 @04:54AM (#18532216)
> This is a basic insurance market. You can still buy the insurance separately if you want it -- sites like eBay would undoubtedly offer it with nothing more than a checkbox for about the same fee as the credit card companies currently charge for implicitly the same thing.

It's not the same thing. With chargebacks, in the case of fraud the payment processor almost always extracts the money from the seller, acting both as a deterrent and reducing the cost of the protection. If it was just insurance, it would be more expensive (because there would be less deterrent to (seller-side) fraud and it would cost more to recoup the costs).

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday November 27, 2018 @09:04PM (#18548674)
> It's not the same thing. With chargebacks, in the case of fraud the payment processor almost always extracts the money from the seller, acting both as a deterrent and reducing the cost of the protection. If it was just insurance, it would be more expensive (because there would be less deterrent to (seller-side) fraud and it would cost more to recoup the costs).

It's still possible to do that by having the insurer escrow the payment in cases where you want the insurance, if that's actually more efficient.

But sometimes it isn't. Doing it that way subjects you to buyer fraud where the buyer actually receives the item, claims not to have and has their money refunded. The cost of that has to be paid by honest sellers, which then have to charge higher prices to honest buyers.

And an insurer who can't recover their costs from the seller has more incentive to vet the sellers (and buyers) so that they aren't insuring fraudulent transactions to begin with, which could plausibly have lower overhead than sellers eating the entire cost of buyer fraud.

Different choices may be more efficient for different transactions. A transaction between a reputable buyer and a reputable seller will have low insurance costs even without escrow. A seller with less reputation would have higher insurance costs, but can mitigate the cost by offering to accept escrowed payments but only from more reputable buyers. A buyer with less reputation could do the opposite, buying from a more reputable seller at low insurance cost by waiving the ability to easily reverse the transaction.

Forcing everyone into the same box only creates inefficiency.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by baddox on Sunday November 25, 2018 @11:03PM (#18530970)
Counter to your counterpoint: the people selling you those games on eBay also know that you might be able to revoke your payment either fraudulently or because of events outside the seller’s control, thus the selling price is almost certainly higher than it would otherwise be. In other words, both buyer and seller are incurring a cost due to the existence of chargebacks. Whether that cost is worth it depends on the actual probability of fraud or problems occurring, and at the very least, it seems reasonable to have an option for both buyer and seller to agree to not support chargebacks.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by spookthesunset on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:18AM (#18534367)
> In other words, both buyer and seller are incurring a cost due to the existence of chargebacks

The cost isn't due to chargebacks. It is due to the risk of fraud. Criminal behaviour like fraud extracts a toll on society at large and we all get to pay. The overhead added from chargebacks make both the buyer and seller internalize the potential risk of fraud. Without chargebacks, yeah prices might be slightly lower but society at large would get to foot the bill for fraud.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by baddox on Monday November 26, 2018 @11:39AM (#18534550)
It could still be optional for parties who trust each other. Chargebacks is not the only way to establish trust in a transaction.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by gerikson on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:15PM (#18534897)
Loyalty programs fill that role.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by baddox on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:50PM (#18535268)
Loyalty programs, reputation systems, escrow, etc. Nothing will ever be perfect, but the status quo of chargebacks is also not perfect.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by hoorayimhelping on Monday November 26, 2018 @02:03AM (#18531640)
That's like saying "many people won't meet someone in the desert and sell drugs for cash after being burned by a shady deal." That is very true, but how is that relevant? Some people will still want to meet in the desert to sell drugs for cash, away from prying eyes and ears, despite the risk. The fact that many people still want all the conveniences of modern transactions doesn't change the fact that some people don't.

I'm not even really sure what all these posts are arguing for. Someone asked what problem cryptocurrency is supposed to solve, and the GP answered it with a good and succinct answer:

>It's trying to solve the problem of having to involve a 3rd party in on-line transactions.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by stale2002 on Monday November 26, 2018 @01:13AM (#18531498)
Of course you shouldn't be forced to use certain payment methods. ut that is irrelevant to the choices of other people.

If other people want other payment methods, that is their choice.

Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by tonyedgecombe on Monday November 26, 2018 @06:26AM (#18532552)
It works the other way as well, there are some products businesses can't sell and communities they can't service because the risk of fraudulent chargebacks is so high.
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by GenericsMotors on Monday November 26, 2018 @12:44PM (#18535217)
Can you elaborate with some examples?
Re:Richard Stallman: We Can Do Better Than Bitcoin by mrhappyunhappy on Monday November 26, 2018 @02:58AM (#18531803)
This is what smart contracts are for. Make the contract valid only when the other party verified receipt.