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Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:27PM (#18488467)
Crypto is going to come back with vengeance. Maybe not bitcoin and maybe not in the next 6 months, but people have seen the future and they want more.

In order to maximize "exchange of value", there needs to be a way to exchange tiny amounts of money easily. Right now there isn't such a way and crypto might solve it.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by lsiunsuex on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:32PM (#18488519)
(not an investor nor a banker)

"At its peak, in November 2017, it briefly hit $19,783 - which means the price has fallen by about 75%."

If this were a real stock market and those were real $$$s, isn't that the kind of crash that causes great depressions or investors jumping out of windows (movie trope, but not really)

How can something so volatile possibly be worth pursuing or investing in, other then get rich quick schemes.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by nostrademons on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:52PM (#18488692)
The real stock market actually has those kind of moves, approximately once a decade. Peak Akamai, for example, was $327/share on Dec 1 1999. I bought in at $1.90 in May 2002, the bottom was $0.90 4 months later, and it's currently at $68.53. Folks who invested in the dot-com boom are still 80% underwater (much worse than any Bitcoin investor), while folks who invested 3 years later are sitting on a comfortable 60-bagger.

Investors in GM & Chrysler (considered blue-chip value stocks at the time) saw their investments go to zero when the companies declared bankruptcy in the 2009 Financial Crisis. The S&P 500 dropped 50% in the same period. PG&E stock dropped by 53% in one day last week when it was revealed that they may be responsible for the California wildfires.

Pretty much everything worth investing in is that volatile. You just either need to be greedy when other people are fearful and vice versa, or have long enough time horizons for it not to matter.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by dqpb on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488586)
Surely the speculative value of bitcoin is independent of the inherent value of cryptocurrency technology. You wouldn't argue that cash isn't viable because some countries economies have crashed.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by fisherjeff on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:53PM (#18488704)
> You wouldn't argue that cash isn't viable because some countries economies have crashed

On the other hand, I would say a country's economy weren't viable if their cash had crashed.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by dragonwriter on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:43PM (#18488628)
> You wouldn't argue that cash isn't viable because some countries economies have crashed.

That's actually exactly the argument I've seen from many Bitcoin proponents, ironically enough.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by superfrank on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:38PM (#18488591)
I agree that I think crypto is pretty much dead in the water, but comparing it's volatility to the stock market as a whole is kind of silly.

Sure, if the S&P/Dow/Nasdaq fell 75% people would be jumping out the window, but it's also never risen 300% in a few months like crypto did.

Crypto needs to be evaluated against other speculative investments and not against a long term vehicle like a major index.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by jki275 on Monday November 19, 2018 @02:03PM (#18488794)
300?

Try 2000%, not 300%.

High volatility makes people rich -- that's the attraction. It also makes people poor.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by sunshiney on Monday November 19, 2018 @03:04PM (#18489310)
I've been trading it since last suummer and doing just fine, thank you. But years and years and years of trading under my so-called belt. I'm not alone, though. There is a way to trade a bear market...safely... The folks that got hurt were holders and those who went nuts in Dec. and thought "green" meant "buy."
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by aboodman on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488579)
I think you have your answer: the stock market has had massive declines, and yet people still pursue and invest in stocks.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:34PM (#18488548)
It's the first one. The fact that it was able to gain that much value and mind share is astounding.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by hendzen on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:28PM (#18488485)
"people have seen the future and they want more"

Citation needed. The impression I get is that other than a get rich quick/MLM scheme, there isn't really anything there of interest to the general population. And I say that as someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about Bitcoin and crypto in general.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mattdeboard on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:31PM (#18488509)
You can tell everyone wants it by the way demand has crashed through the floor
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by pc86 on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:41PM (#18488614)
Disclaimer: I made about 13x total ROI speculating on Bitcoin during its volatility between the $1200-8k range. I wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole now.

Demand has crashed because speculation is much more difficult now, and it's much easier to get into a position where your only choices are (a) sell at a huge loss; or, (b) hold and hope it goes up and you can get out even. A few years ago when it was much more volatile unless you were very unlucky with your timing you didn't have to wait more than a month or two to be able to sell with substantial gains, and wait for another drop to buy back in (or buy in pieces on the way down).

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488585)
It crashed as currently the technology isn't quite there, however it will be eventually.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by ssalka on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:40PM (#18488613)
There are several projects working to put power back in the hands of general consumers, rather than enterprise businesses.

DataWallet[0], for example, is building blockchain-based data hub for users to manage their data, in such a way that they (the users) retain control over it, and companies wanting access have to pay. Simplest use case: enter your contact info in 1 place only, not on every website you sign up for. More generally, I think something like this would be well-received by the public, given recent outcries around privacy, scandals in large tech companies, and the emergence of GDPR (specifically: regular people learning - perhaps for the first time - that they have a right to control the access permissions of the data they create, even on someone else's platform).

Another development of interest is Basic Attention Token[1], wherein users are essentially paid to watch ads. This project is pretty well-known so I won't say much about it other than that it does have consumer appeal.

Granted, the majority of blockchain projects don't (directly) address major problems that consumers have; rather, most address the problems that developers and/or businesses face. The hope is that some of these new technologies will enable said devs & businesses to build better products for their respective users.

[0] https://datawallet.com [1] https://basicattentiontoken.org/

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by pixelperfect on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:40PM (#18488609)
It seems to have widespread utility in countries with severe currency problems like Venezuela. But I agree, for countries with healthy economies, I don't see why crypto would attain mainstream adoption for much more than black market transactions.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by jjtheblunt on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:30PM (#18488500)
Agreed totally.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by fredley on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:28PM (#18488488)
Are you joking? Bitcoin is a terrible medium for exchange of small quantities of money. A few places around where I live set up bitcoin payment machines a few years ago. They all gave up. Transaction processing times reached over 30 minutes at the slowest times.

Cash is already the perfect medium for exchanging small amounts of money.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by dqpb on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:41PM (#18488619)
Oh yeah? Try exchanging a small amount of cash from the US with someone in Africa. Cash doesn't solve this problem. In fact there is no good current solution to this problem.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by Applethief on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:54PM (#18488716)
What are your thoughts on Ripple / XRP?
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by dlubarov on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488580)
The parent wasn't talking about Bitcoin in particular though. Newer systems like Tendermint finalize transactions after a few seconds by running a consensus algorithm after each block. We're working on a system with a different consensus algorithm which should have subsecond latency. There are also layer 2 systems which can provide almost instant latency, albeit with some caveats.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by sunshiney on Monday November 19, 2018 @03:08PM (#18489333)
Perhaps but cash is disgusting. Have you read how 90 percent of cash is covered with cocaine? Not to mention all the creepy crawlies on it... ewww...
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by metachris on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:32PM (#18488515)
> Cash is already the perfect medium for exchanging small amounts of money.

Yes in person, but not over the internet. Crypto currencies definitely have potential for exchanging small amount of money there!

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by vbezhenar on Monday November 19, 2018 @03:27PM (#18489501)
As a customer, I'm OK with banks and similar centralized institutions to handle small payments. I can take risk of losing $100 if I'm banned. As a seller, on the other hand, I don't like any notion of centralized institution, because my account will have much more money and block will be painful. But, I guess, I won't have much choice.

Now Bitcoin has much more value for me, as a tool to store money and transfer big payments. There's no easy way to transfer few thousand bucks between countries without dealing with state agencies, there's huge risk of frozen account, there's huge risk of being robbed, etc. Storing money is the same: your house could be robbed, your bank could default. Bitcoin solving those problems perfectly, aside from its fluctuating price, of course, but that couldn't be solved with algorithms anyway.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mamon on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:29PM (#18488493)
The problem is that current cryptocurrencies are not good for such use case. You cannot use Bitcoin for "tiny amounts of money" and for sure you cannot use it "easily". So cryptocurrencies might win in the long run, just not the currently existing ones.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mygo on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:34PM (#18488540)
> people have seen the future and they want more.

Normally when there's a demonstrated demand for something, its price doesn't go down by 75% year over year. Well, outside of government price controlling

You could be right, but it doesn't appear that the thing will be bitcoin, at least not unless it's a different thing sharing the same name.

The promise of bitcoin was a currency. But so far, it's not being used as a currency, people are treating it more like gold than cash. Until people are actually using it in day to day transactions, it's just a collectible.

Now I have been payed in Etherium by a client a couple times, but it's such a hassle. That money's just sitting around because I don't even want to deal with the exchanges.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:36PM (#18488567)
I said crypto not bitcoin. And the current generation of cryptos isn't quite there yet.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mygo on Monday November 19, 2018 @02:31PM (#18488994)
Ah, gotcha. Sometimes people don't discern between the two.

What's your definition of there? Being able to do micro-transactions? quick transactions?

Would transaction fees matter?

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mattdeboard on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:30PM (#18488505)
So just out of curiosity re: exchanging tiny amounts of money, are you suggesting that cryptocurrency and blockchain tech replace banks? Because there are loads of ways to exchange tiny amounts of money...
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by buboard on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:32PM (#18488514)
Like? For example how to do micropayments on the web?
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by tomjakubowski on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:41PM (#18488622)
Venmo, Square Cash, Patreon. There's this espresso bar in LA that only takes cash or Venmo.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by buboard on Monday November 19, 2018 @02:00PM (#18488763)
venmo & sq cash are not available here, and patreon are you serious? None of them beats the simplicity of an app wallet and semi-anonymous payments, kind of like a cash replacement.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by sunshiney on Monday November 19, 2018 @03:09PM (#18489346)
agree with you but we have so much education to do of normal, every day people. It's too techy for too many.. so they don't see what you and I are seeing.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:35PM (#18488560)
And with an easy setup.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by lbotos on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:28PM (#18488483)
> Crypto is going to come back with vengeance.

Bold statement.

> Right now there isn't such a way and crypto might solve it.

weak support.

Why do people need to exchange tiny amounts of money?

EDIT for clarity: Why do people need Crypto to exchange tiny amounts of money?

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by sdenton4 on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:33PM (#18488524)
Completely disagree with the op re bit coin, but I do agree that people need easy ways to handle small transactions seamlessly. Mpesa and venmo provide plenty of reasonable use cases...
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by mattdeboard on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:31PM (#18488513)
People already exchange tiny amounts of money. It's done through this cutting edge service called "banking." I think the implication of the GP's comment is that he considers blockchain/cryptocurrency tech a replacement for banking.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by dlubarov on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:49PM (#18488671)
What banking service are you referring to? Credit networks, debit networks, ACH, something else? AFAIK none of them are practical for micropayments, in the US at least. It's possible that the banking industry could invent a network on which micropayments are practical, but it hasn't happened yet.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by imglorp on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488577)
Micropayments is the perfect use case.

My vision is you would stock a wallet with, say $50, and then authorize a few of your regular sites in your client. Every time you loaded a new story, it might deduct $.01 for example.

Perhaps not with this tech, but one similar with fast transactions and tiny fees. See Iota for example.

Shifting from an ad driven to paid publisher/subscriber model has many advantages. Ideally you'd have a tech to support it which was a) not centralized, b) anonymous customer but visible vendor, and c) low transaction fees. This rules out credit cards and bitcoin but there are others.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by creeble on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:46PM (#18488654)
I think all these visions for micro payments have been swamped by advertising as a source for revenue.

I dislike that fact, but I don't think most people care. So micro payments are just a way to make less money than advertising-based models.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by adamnemecek on Monday November 19, 2018 @04:21PM (#18489858)
Lol are you aware of the backlash against advertising?
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by Scoundreller on Monday November 19, 2018 @08:45PM (#18491294)
I imagine Netflix working that way in an opaque way.

Of the 3rd-party produced works, I assume netflix pays them some fraction of my $x.xx/month based on my viewing time.

Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by akhilcacharya on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:41PM (#18488615)
I really don't understand these examples for micropayments, they're always for things I wouldn't pay for anyway.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by imglorp on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:59PM (#18488752)
Oh? Do you fund anyone on Patreon? Is there no content you think is worthwhile, quality reading, that you'd pay a little to contribute your share, instead of ads and malware?
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by akhilcacharya on Wednesday November 21, 2018 @12:13AM (#18500289)
I don’t and nobody I know does either.
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by creeble on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:37PM (#18488582)
I'm not sure people need a lot of ways to exchange tiny amounts of money either, but the existing ones like Venmo work really well. Without a blockchain. And fast, too!
Re:Bitcoin falls below $5,000 by nambit on Monday November 19, 2018 @01:31PM (#18488510)
lmao. People have seen the future and it is decentralized fax machines