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Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by creeble on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:39PM (#18462527)
Curious how this will pan out.

It's a shocking contrast to be in or near a city and have broadband speeds, and then be just a few dozen miles outside one and have... literally nothing.

I just loaned my Iridium phone to a friend who was going to the jungle, and although he was able to make the data connection work, even doing email at 2400 baud(!) proved useless. Inmarsat is faster, but vastly more expensive.

Outside of those two, there is no global solution.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by PeterisP on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:04PM (#18463303)
It depends on what you mean by "email". "Doing email" as in SMTP/POP at 2400 baud is feasible, "doing email" as in accessing a https webmail service is not.

You can communicate effectively over 2400 baud if (and only if) you use protocols and services designed for low bandwidth; luckily we have those protocols built and tested, even if we have mostly abandoned some of them.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by djweis on Thursday November 15, 2018 @05:37PM (#18464135)
It's workable if you take your MTU down to 256 or 128.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by dzhiurgis on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:14PM (#18463406)
Are you actually suggesting dropping SSL? Sure, Iridium is somewhat encrypted and indeed provide its own Facebook and Twitter apps.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by PeterisP on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:30PM (#18463554)
Over 2400 baud? Yes, I probably would suggest dropping SSL and instead transmit pre-encrypted data over a very plain, very simple connection to avoid the overhead of SSL handshake (something like 5kb for current keysizes?) and its latency.

GPG-encrypted email over plain POP would work; and you can have automatic "remailers" on both sides of the link that handle the encryption/decryption once the communications are done over a "normal" connection.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by tialaramex on Thursday November 15, 2018 @10:36PM (#18466169)
You pay full handshake setup only if you don't have a shared key. If reducing bandwidth is the priority you would always set up a key on first connection and use the maximum allowable expiry time (10 days?) so long as you reconnect this often you never do another full handshake since you have a key (and you're allowed to get a new key with the old one, resetting the expiry timestamp each time).

With this slimming approach you also wouldn't use these grotesque "... and here's a portrait of my dog" type certificates we sometimes see, that may be several kilobytes in size, nor use the lengthy RSA keys. You'd do the minimum possible certificate for a single name and an EC key.

So it'll probably cost ~1kB on first connection and then only a few hundred bytes on subsequent connections, without any special components, this all just works with generic software you already have if configured appropriately.

You can shave a little more off if you agree to custom configure everything since the proof-by-certificate isn't mandatory in TLS per se, you can do everything with shared keys if you agree out of band what those keys are. This is intended for IoT-type applications.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by wolf550e on Thursday November 15, 2018 @05:12PM (#18463954)
1-RTT TLS 1.3 handshake with small ECC keys and certificate chain optimized for size, and TLS shouldn't be a problem to sync mail over slow connection.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by 51lver on Thursday November 15, 2018 @06:04PM (#18464324)
Simple and reliable pgp encryption will outlast tls 1.3, and rural users (quite reasonably) expect more life from their devices than city folks. No one is going to download and update with a 200MB image at 2400bps afterall.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by wolf550e on Thursday November 15, 2018 @06:53PM (#18464687)
pgp email is basically deprecated by the security community. Security people do not use and do not recommend pgp email. TLS is used by everything, and a version of it will be used for a long time, for example everything that will use IETF QUIC or HTTP3+ on top of IETF QUIC.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by gsich on Friday November 16, 2018 @01:40AM (#18466967)
TLS is transport layer encryption. PGP is mail content encryption. TLS can't replace PGP, as it deals with encryption on another layer.

While you might feel that it's deprecated (says who?) it's certainly in use, even by those "security people".

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by stcredzero on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:47PM (#18462611)
even doing email at 2400 baud(!) proved useless

In the late 90's I did a lot of my grad school coding and implemented a website for a state agency though 9600 baud modems. EMACS was great in those days, precisely because it's a Lisp machine OS masquerading as a text editor. I used to read USENET news, read my email, do my work, shuffle between multiple remotely logged in shells, all through EMACS.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by nugga on Thursday November 15, 2018 @07:31PM (#18464991)
Starlink could be a godsent for online gamers. Anything under 100 ms for fps games is quite playable and you don't need much bandwidth for those udp packets. Just guarantee some minimum bandwidth allotment of say 1 mbps and make sure the satellites are not so oversubscribed as to cause unnecessarily long or unoptimized routing. Games between west coast usa and eu or eu and asia would be playable.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by russdill on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:57PM (#18465612)
If you're going to another continent, you're going to see a big latency savings. If your going to another state, you're probably going to get lower latency on fiber. But really, a 60Hz frame is 33.3ms, and many online games advance their world state at 60Hz too, so it's easy to get up to 67 ms of latency just sitting still.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by nugga on Friday November 16, 2018 @03:55AM (#18467494)
You are right in that games have latency inherent to the processing of game engine ticks and depending on when you press the button the server might have just advanced to the next frame when your input gets processed and you're looking at another delay of potentially tens of milliseconds on top of network round trip and of course however long it takes the game to draw the updated info on your screen once the information gets back.

Wonder if it would make sense nowadays to send world state updates to clients at 1000 Hz or if it's even feasible?

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by diamondlovesyou on Friday November 16, 2018 @01:47AM (#18467003)
A lot of people play with 144hz (what I play on) and some even higher (240hz). Which is just under 7ms and just over 4ms, respectively.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by de_watcher on Friday November 16, 2018 @02:49AM (#18467239)
He's talking about network frames, not graphics frames.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by shaklee3 on Thursday November 15, 2018 @07:54PM (#18465174)
is this really true? I haven't played video games in a long time, but I remember when playing counter strike that someone with a 20ms ping was at a significant advantage over someone with an 80ms ping.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by kbenson on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:23PM (#18465367)
I think playable is meant more in a "we can have a fun game" sense and less of a "I can be competitive at a high level" sense. Even the former becomes hard at higher latencies.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by nugga on Friday November 16, 2018 @03:48AM (#18467456)
Sure, I'm using 4 G mobile internets now and occasionally have to play call of duty at around 80 ms and I can still kick ass. There's no place like LAN for hardcore competitive gaming but if the game's netcode is done well 80 ms is good enough. The trick is to have some sort of lag compensation, which cs should have as far as I know, where you don't have to lead your shots so the feel of the game is mostly the same, you just get the reports a bit later than you would at 20 ms.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by calebh on Thursday November 15, 2018 @07:46PM (#18465117)
Maybe this will help boost the "game as a service" offerings.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by russdill on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:58PM (#18465618)
As far as I know, they still serve different purposes. The starlink antenna needs to see a large portion of the sky and needs to be stationary.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by aportnoy on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:43PM (#18462570)
Iridium already employs SpaceX for their launches.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by dzhiurgis on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:10PM (#18463365)
What's perplexing is why Iridium is not doing way more. They are essentially just letting SpaceX to cannibalise them. Sure, they don't have fancy rockets, but still can scale their satellite net before Elon catches up with sat tech or outsource launches to even cheaper Indian launch provider.

p.s. the story of Iridium and how they recovered is quite amazing.

Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by Scoundreller on Thursday November 15, 2018 @05:01PM (#18463855)
I think the more amazing part of Iridium’s story is that they got the money to launch their constellation in the first place. It’s crushing debt and inevitable bankruptcy with the assets being acquired for something like 1/20th of a cent on the dollar was to be expected really.
Re:SpaceX just got FCC approval to launch 7,518 satellites by manquer on Thursday November 15, 2018 @09:37PM (#18465847)
Iridium is around now. Both their next gen and the old gen. SpaceX will take atleast 5-7 years to get full coverage. The customer base of iridium is very different than what SpaceX is targeting.. there should be room for more than one player