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Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by quotemstr on Sunday November 11, 2018 @04:45PM (#18428805)
QUIC is technically excellent. I have a game-theoretic concern with putting it in userspace.

I worry that everyone will have an incentive to "cheat" at congestion control, leading to a tragedy-of-the-commons situation of ever-more-aggressive flows, followed by eventual congestion collapse.

This effect didn't happen with in the TCP world, since most applications don't run with enough privileges to speak TCP without the kernel's involvement. But now that we're moving to a model in which applications do their own congestion control, an arms race seems inevitable.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by MaxBarraclough on Sunday November 11, 2018 @05:00PM (#18428896)
Apps have been free to abuse UDP all this time, but it's not been a real issue. Even data-hungry applications like video-streaming have gone with TCP almost every time.

Also, couldn't the OS still throttle back greedy applications? No reason it couldn't detect the heavy stream of UDP traffic.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by adev_ on Monday November 12, 2018 @02:48AM (#18431174)
> Apps have been free to abuse UDP all this time, but it's not been a real issue. Even data-hungry applications like video-streaming have gone with TCP almost every time.

In the past Bittorrent and the creation of the µTP prooved ( http://blog.bittorrent.com/2009/11/13/testing-%C2%B5tp-is-%C... ) that unmanaged protocol abuse in userspace can lead to big degradation in QOS yes. Mainly due to "unfair" congestion policy between protocols.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by M2Ys4U on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:13PM (#18429323)
> Apps have been free to abuse UDP all this time, but it's not been a real issue. Even data-hungry applications like video-streaming have gone with TCP almost every time.

I suspect that's more down to NAT than anything else

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by quotemstr on Sunday November 11, 2018 @05:02PM (#18428911)
I worry that it'll become easier (and this more common) in an all QUIC world. It's always been possible, but few people have had the expertise and motive.

The OS can throttle sends on a single machine, but it can't arbitrate across machines or do anything about incoming flows.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by profmonocle on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:09PM (#18429308)
> The OS can throttle sends on a single machine, but it can't arbitrate across machines or do anything about incoming flows.

Isn't that the case with TCP's congestion control as well? If the server's kernel isn't backing off properly, how can the client's TCP stack mitigate that?

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by quotemstr on Sunday November 11, 2018 @07:24PM (#18429673)
People running services can and do play games with TCP send-side congestion control: see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1942442

So far, these hacks have been limited by the need to work with stock receive-side TCP stacks. Once you move to UDP, all bets are off.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by nathanaldensr on Sunday November 11, 2018 @04:56PM (#18428878)
I'm having a bit of trouble understanding your point. Perhaps you could give a specific example of what you mean by "ever-more-aggressive flows?"
Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by quotemstr on Sunday November 11, 2018 @04:58PM (#18428887)
Say I ship an app and control its backend servers. I control QUIC on both ends. What's stopping my using a non-standard QUIC that starts faster and that backs off less aggressively in response to congestion signals like delay and loss? If I do that and you don't, then on a congested link, my app will end up using more than its fair share of bandwidth.
Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by unilynx on Sunday November 11, 2018 @05:58PM (#18429259)
What is stopping you from doing this with TCP?
Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by Confiks on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:38PM (#18429439)
It is addressed above:

> This effect didn't happen with in the TCP world, since most applications don't run with enough privileges to speak TCP without the kernel's involvement.

The argument is that while kernel developers wouldn't start this supposed "arms race", but application developers would.

I think we would have seen this already with things like (m)uTP if it was an issue.

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by unilynx on Monday November 12, 2018 @11:40AM (#18433621)
The GP was talking about controlling both ends of the connection, I assumed that implied having root-level access to both ends. A scenario where you control both ends but don't have full TCP/IP stack access on at least one side seems pretty academical.

(But even then, just open lots of TCP connections if you want to have your unfair share of bandwidth)

Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by ldng on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:20PM (#18429353)
In HTTPS, nobody. Else, proxies ?
Re:HTTP-over-QUIC will officially become HTTP/3 by javajammer on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:54PM (#18429531)
Clients' kernels?