> Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people, all the money is in construction and farming rather than tech, poor range of jobs, low wages, and relatively expensive real estate

It's funny that you moved to Australia and complain that NZ is parochial and small minded. I've found Australia to be even worse, although Sydney and Melbourne are large enough that you can self select into groups of people where you avoid that. Australia is multicultural, sure, but not in an inclusionary way. When was the last time New Zealand had race riots?

Real estate in Melbourne and Sydney aren't exactly affordable either, unless you enjoy a 1 hour commute each direction daily.

Australia has great pay, and Melbourne and Sydney are great for the big city life if that's what you enjoy (which I do). Remember as well that if you're a New Zealand citizen in Australia you're essentially treated as a guest worker, you get minimal government benefits, regardless of how long you've lived here, and technically your visa is subject to cancelation at any time (although if you're not a criminal that's not a particular issue).

Agreed, you could have been talking about Brisbane/SE Qld as well. Just swap farming for mining.

Real estate prices relative to wages have been in the extremely unaffordable range for a decade and construction continues to be propped up to protect years of misguided investment in what is a ponzi scheme in all but name.

But also 30% tax rate, totally open for business, common law, beautiful nature, forced by their difficult geographic location "to try harder" and be more open. I would also say that being a small country puts a limit to having big political ambitions. Many safe, wealthy, stable countries are small and sovereign (or were at least originally based on "small-minded" localist politics). I can see NZ become some kind of Pacific Switzerland -- which arguably is also built on a substrate of conservative or "parochial" people.

And is NZ not just as multicultural as Australia?

And finally: another commenter here responded "New Zealand's software industry is significantly more mature than it was 2+ decades ago." Can you understand what he means by that? When did you leave NZ?

I hope you care to elaborate, we have to decide next week so any opinion is welcome, especially if you grew up there :-)

I also grew up in New Zealand, and it's not for me. It's great if you want to start a family and have a very quiet life. I think I might retire there if I can somehow afford a house.

One of the main reasons I left is that I could never afford a house, or even the down-payment on a mortgage. If I had lots of money then New Zealand would probably be more appealing to me, but it's not a good place to earn it. I don't know if you'll be able to get a very competitive salary, but it might be worth it if you're really excited about the company, and you'll be working on some really interesting things.

One thing to mention is that most shops will close at 5pm, and many cafes even close at 3pm. I think once a week, the shopping malls will stay open until 10pm. The streets are completely quiet at night, and you won't see anyone walking around. After living in bigger cities for a while, I'm always really shocked when I go back for a visit. It's like a ghost town. It's an important factor for me because I work remotely, so I hated being stuck at home and having nowhere to go at 8pm.

Another very important point: You will probably have to cook almost all of your own food at home. Going out to eat at cafes and restaurant is extremely expensive, and it's probably not something that you can afford to do every day (especially not on a NZ salary.) I'm used to living in cities where it's normal to eat out at restaurants most of the time. But you can't do that in New Zealand unless you're very wealthy.

Anyway, it's great if you want to live somewhere quiet and raise a family. You can also spend lots of time at the beach, and go for walks in nature. But you can do that in lots of other countries, too. Personally, I prefer to live somewhere a bit more vibrant, where there's a lot of opportunities and things to do.

Thx for your reply! Housing is problematic in Auckland... half of the offered income would go to rent.

About family & excitement: we have little kids, so cooking at home and not going out much will be normal for us, regardless of where we live, for many years to come :-)

The wage thing is correct. Moving to NZ will cut my income by quite a bit more than 50%. But I'm fascinated with the rugged "wanting it more" vibes of NZ vs my native country. Vibes which I'm either picking correctly or just imagining. Care to comment on that?

I think you're right about the "wanting it more" vibes. Maybe also related to the "number 8 wire mentality" [1], where farmers get things done with whatever they have. There are lots of amazing inventors, scientists, and explorers from New Zealand.

I think New Zealanders seem to have a really high level of empathy compared to many other countries. There are lots of non-profit organizations that do amazing work, in addition to the awesome public healthcare system. St John [2] provides free first aid and ambulance rides to everyone, and they're a charity staffed by volunteers and run on donations (they're also in Australia and the UK.)

Also ACC [3] is an amazing safety net that most people take for granted. If you are injured in an accident and can't work any more, they will take care of you for the rest of your life. (As well as universal healthcare, we also have universal no-fault accident insurance.) We have a family friend who suffered severe brain damage in a car accident over 20 years ago. They're unable to work, and ACC is still giving them 80% of their salary (adjusted for inflation), so they are able to stay in a nice home with qualified caregivers.

So it's a pretty awesome country. It's just a bit quiet, very expensive, and the tech salaries are not very competitive.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_8_wire

[2] https://www.stjohn.org.nz

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporat...

I think you've really hit the nail on the head there. I also grew up in New Zealand and left for Australia for the reasons that you specified. Cost of living is the same or higher than Australia, but with lower wages. My grocery bill is almost half of what it was in New Zealand, my rent is about the same, and my salary is double what it was back home.

New Zealand is a great country if you want what it offers. If I did want to settle down and raise a family I'd sail back across the ditch in a heartbeat.

When you say double, are we talking for lower/mid-range career levels? At the upper levels, I think it's quite comparable (living & working in Auckland atm, but for a multi-national, so being paid a bit above market due to rolling RSUs).

I can't see myself earning 500k p.a. in Australia doing software PM, if so, I'm moving tomorrow :)

Even if they're paying you half your current salary? :-)

Yes, money isn't everything, it's a means to an end. A lot of Kiwis move over to Australia for 5 years or so to make a pile of savings, then move back to NZ and settle down. If you get a decent job and don't blow all your money living the big city lifestyle you can save $15-20k per year. The trades pay a lot better in Australia than New Zealand, and if you live outside central Melbourne or Sydney cost of living is fairly low.

Good points.

> many cafes even close at 3pm

That’s far too close to a black mark against NZ coffee though. The weak, lukewarm, milky liquid that is served up elsewhere is deeply depressing. The stuff I want is best not consumed late in the day.

I agree, I think the coffee and food in New Zealand is some of the best in the world. The average restaurant in Auckland is just so much better than the average restaurant in San Francisco (and many other cities I've lived in). I think there is just a really high standard in NZ, and I've had very few bad experiences at restaurants. San Francisco was like playing Russian Roulette. There's just a lot of very mediocre food. If you want to go somewhere with good reviews, you have to make a reservation well in advance, or wait in line for 2 hours. You don't have to do that so much in NZ.

I don't know what century you lived in NZ, but none of what you mentioned about shops closing is true. Sounds like when I was a kid in the 70's.

Sorry yeah, there some better places to live if you want a nightlife, like the Auckland city center or Newmarket, but that's even more expensive. (And still really quiet compared to other places in the world.)

I was talking about the suburbs in west Auckland, like Henderson, Kumeu, etc. And in smaller towns as well. One time we were thinking about moving to New Plymouth, so we stayed for a week, and that was definitely way too quiet for me.

"Parochial, small-minded, cliquey people" and so you moved to Australia? I don't believe you have ever met any Australians. Or New Zealanders. One or the other.

There is a small town mentality in NZ which is happily absent in the Australian big cities.

For instance, nobody in Oz has ever asked me what school I went to. I got asked that regularly in NZ by status-insecure middlebrow white people.

The question you're more likely to get is what school do your kids go to. Asking a New Zealander about their school back in NZ would be meaningless. You could say Raupo primary school and no one would know.