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Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:52AM (#18400363)
We prototyped https://www.moonlightwork.com without code.

Here was our basic workflow:

1. Marketing site set up using Squarespace

2. Developers apply using Typeform. We add them to a Google Sheet with Zapier.

3. New jobs submitted through Typeform, which triggers an email to us

4. We manually set up a new Google Form to collect proposals. We send the results google sheet to the client.

5. We manually search for developers that match the skills of the project and email them all manually to ask them to submit a proposal using the Google Form.

6. Project owner selects a developers. We docusign a contract to both parties.

7. We send a google sheet to the developer to log hours

8. Every week we go through the developer timesheet and manually issue an invoice using PaidLabs.com (with Stripe at backend)

9. When the payment gets deposited, we pay the developer (wire transfer outside USA, Payable.com inside the USA)

We slowly automated each step with a web app, which was published part-by-part as we finished automating a particular step. We did about $100K GMV with this no-code stack before we completed the end-to-end web application.

Today, Moonlight is profitable and bootstrapped. We still manually prototype things. For example, we came up with the idea of a subscription product on Tuesday last week. We had a client agree to it, so we issued an invoice through Stripe Invoices on Friday, collected the money, and are now starting to build subscriptions into the app.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:34PM (#18402601)
Pretty off-topic but I'm going to throw it out there anyways. I play a game call Factorio, a quick run down it is a procedurally generated, top-down (2.5D ish) game where you can move around your character to mine materials, build things, etc. A huge part of the game is automating the creation of various items. For example iron gears are used in a number of lower-level items and while when you go to craft an item it will automatically build all the intermediate items (providing you have the materials) this becomes tedious very quickly (by design).

I find that playing the game requires a healthy balance between #AutomateAllTheThings and "Don't waste time building a huge factory for something you need very little of OR you don't know how much of it you will need". This same experience/way-of-thinking applies heavily to development/programming in the form of "Premature Optimization". In my first Factorio game I spent WAY too much time building massive factories to pump up every single item I needed. This lead to a boring grind and wasn't efficient at all. I was overwhelmed with making sure I always had a chest full of X item ready for me that I wasted a bunch of time (which, to be fair, in Factorio I didn't exactly waste the time as I had fun).

For me this resonates heavily with as it lead to a sort of "analysis paralysis" that I immediately recognized from my attempts at a side business. The next thing I attempt I am going to make a conscious effort to focus on a MVP above all else and ignore scale completely. My last attempts at building a side business have spiraled out of control quickly as I attempt to right all the wrongs, foresee all the potential issues, side steps all the mistakes I saw happen at work, etc.

In some ways I really miss my days in high school when I would open up a blank php file and start coding instead of wasting HOURS looking into various tech stacks/frameworks/libraries/etc in an attempt to "future proof" my setup. I realize now it's a fool's errand. That's not to say you should never think about how you would scale but at the same time don't let the idea of future success keep you from creating the exact things you are trying to future proof.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by jayant123 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:14PM (#18403421)
Coincidentally, I just saw this Reddit post yesterday - https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/9uxeq3/factorio_a... - "Factorio as an exam for computer engineers recruitment in Japan. If you play the game well, you can get a job!"
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by extragood on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:23PM (#18403462)
"What is the most effective way to mass-produce blue potion, considering the following geographically-distributed resource locations, and impending attacks from several maximum-hostility alien swarms? Assume that bots are restricted to maintenance only. You have 20 minutes to design a scalable solution. Go."
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by wingerlang on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:32PM (#18404155)

    In some ways I really miss my days in high school when I would open up a blank php file and start coding instead of wasting HOURS
Is there anything stopping you? I never went into 'web' so that's still my goto solution. A few months ago I had an idea and I had something up and running in PHP within a few days.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Thursday November 08, 2018 @11:30AM (#18407411)
No there isn't, I get into a head space that goes a little something like this:

* I think I'll create a little website for XYZ

* Better setup a GitHub repo for this

* Hmm, I really like using Angular/Typescript since I use that so I'll use that

* Better make sure Webpack is all setup and working

* Should I do my development in Docker since that's how I'll deploy it?

* Maybe I'll try this new NodeJS backend framework that looks interesting

* I need to make sure all my config lives outside of my app so that I don't hardcode values

* Oh crap, I want to share code between server and client but they both have their own Webpack configs and merging the two without screwing something up doesn't sound fun

* What, was was I going to create a website for again?

My most enjoyable non-work programming over the last year or so has been in my ~/git/temp-scripts folder where I can just create a new folder for something, run npm init, and be coding in less than a minute. This is mainly used for, as the name suggests, temporarily scripts or better yet, scripts that I'm not sure if they will have legs or if I'll just use it once. It's pretty much my little playground where I don't have to worry about scaling, reusability, etc.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by lifekaizen on Thursday November 08, 2018 @01:14PM (#18408430)
Thanks for sharing your thought process, I found it interesting.

I get the sense that there’s a gem in your scripting, and one of those might become useful and need more work, and then you’d have a reason to scale it.

There’s [a recent interview with PG](https://www.startupschool.org/videos/36) where he talks about the joys of hacking, you might find it interesting.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:41PM (#18409255)
Thank you! I'll check that out
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by meko on Tuesday November 13, 2018 @03:37AM (#18439556)
This thread gives me major anxiety because that's basically how it goes for me too much of the time. Things have got a bit better but I still spend sometimes months reading docs before starting a project (I use tons of diff types of sw though so that extends it a bit)
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by akuji1993 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:33AM (#18404858)
The programming subreddits and also HN LOVE to make PHP and Javascript look like garbage. In reality, you can still make damn good software with it.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by Cogito on Sunday November 11, 2018 @06:30PM (#18429397)
I also love Factorio - it gets better when you play multiplayer and with mods.

I've found, getting back into it, that Project Euler really helps me 'just start coding'. Last time I got into it (around 2014) I would focus on trying to understand the mathematics and solving things by hand. Now I look at a problem or two every few days, and have fairly streamlined solving them.

Breaking the problem into chunks, making sure those chunks work with tests, gluing the chunks together to get the fact needed by the question, running with the specific input needed for the answer, realising the naive way I implemented the solution is way too slow, adding timing information, analysing the algorithmic complexity, reading pages and pages of mathematical theory...

Sometimes it goes off the deep end, but getting some result almost immediately is so useful.

It's the reason Factorio is fun (you can just build it by hand, most of the time) and Excel is used everywhere (you can see the algorithm and its results together, as you build it). It takes a bit of discipline to do yourself, when the gratification loop isn't built in to the tools you're using, and that's why I think Project Euler is so useful. You get short, achievable programming problems that you can solve quickly and build a habit of solving efficiently.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by akurilin on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:10PM (#18403889)
I believe the Shopify CEO mentioned it recently in a podcast, together with Starcraft 2, as one of his favorite games that translate well to skills applicable to startups.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:18PM (#18403925)
I really need to try SC2, I played a ridiculous amount of SC:BW back in HS. Do you remember which podcast? I'd love to listen to the episode.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by huxflux on Thursday November 08, 2018 @05:32AM (#18405439)
Keep those beautiful SC:BW memories, don't go down that dark SC2-path. At least I don't dare.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by akurilin on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:57PM (#18404067)
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:35PM (#18404166)
Thank you!
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by dccoolgai on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @07:55PM (#18403586)
That and SpaceChem arebtwo games that transfer a lot of skills to the SE space. I need to pick up factorio again, one if the best I've ever played.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by joshstrange on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @08:04PM (#18403642)
Yep, played a little SpaceChem as well and I liked RimWorld a lot (not exactly the same but in a similar vein for me) but Factorio is my favorite.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by halbritt on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:02PM (#18403108)
Upvote just because I love Factorio.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by zacharycohn on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:06PM (#18401932)
Love it. I wrote a blog post about a subscription notification business I started called Amazing Airfare. I iterated in much the same way - everything was manual, automated things as I grew and scaled and it made sense to. Wrote a post about it here: https://medium.com/@zacharycohn/on-mvps-glueing-things-toget...
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by mr_puzzled on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:25PM (#18401044)
Did you guys apply to YC this cycle?

If I signup as a developer, how easy/hard would it be to find a gig? I assume the supply of good developers is not an issue so finding work would be hard.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:42PM (#18401148)
> Did you guys apply to YC this cycle?

Yes, we applied to YC. We didn't get an interview. I assume that the market size isn't big enough for VC.

> If I signup as a developer, how easy/hard would it be to find a gig?

Contracting kind of depends on how much energy you put in. We've seen smart people not try that hard, and get zero gigs after 20 applications. On the opposite end, professional contractors who give thoughtful applications get many jobs at high hourly rates.

Moonlight can only net increase your job flow. If you are in need of contract work, you can always email us (team at moonlightwork.com) and we'll manually coach you on improving applications, and make warm intros to clients. (We have had success doing this manually over the past month, and are contemplating on turning it into an automated "I'm available right now" flow in the product.)

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by profalseidol on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @09:57PM (#18404071)
Can somebody who's worked with legacy J2EE applications get a gig? All the buzzword right now is fullstack react/angular + lots of tools to make javascript development scale. Most of my recent experience right now is stopping/starting JBoss and figuring out how to sneak in yet another feature into a 15 yr old java codebase.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by shanghaiaway on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @05:49PM (#18403044)
> Yes, we applied to YC. We didn't get an interview. I assume that the market size isn't big enough for VC.

Worse ideas with smaller markets have been funded by YC. I'm guessing you could have gotten in if you pitched a larger vision.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by civilian on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:21PM (#18403197)
"As the Gig Economy hits Tech, ALL TECH JOBS will be performed through Moonlight! Market cap > 4q"
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by anikdas on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @10:34PM (#18404164)
Surprisingly I never heard back from you guys once I followed up on your email.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Thursday November 08, 2018 @05:25AM (#18405421)
Hi - I don't see any messages from the email in your profile. Reach out to me at philip at moonlightwork.com if you have any questions!
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by trulykp on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:46PM (#18401173)
That is a great story of grit! Love it, thanks for sharing.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @02:50PM (#18401799)
Thanks! We're approaching the 2-year anniversary of starting Moonlight. That's a long time to work on a business!

It's been a long journey to understand what customers want. I think that a subscription product is our future, and we didn't figure that out until last week! But, we even tested that manually - and, in doing so, have done more net revenue in the previous seven days than we did in the first year of our business.

We've fortunately been ramen profitable this year, but I hope that in 2019 we can start to focus on growth!

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by paulie_a on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:17PM (#18402017)
I'm sorry to say but 2 years is not a long time when starting a business. That's just getting started. It's a long road. The fact you are profitable is great, but it's a marathon not a race.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:20PM (#18402039)
I definitely agree! I more refer to the fact that we have not yet hit the turning point of clear product/market fit after two years.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by sjcsjc on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:26PM (#18403220)
Sprint?

A marathon is a race ;-)

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by sbilstein on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:18PM (#18402018)
Very similar for my business’ various pivots. When you don’t have seed funding, this feels like the ONLY way to go.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by welder on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:12PM (#18403158)
Wanna use https://wakatime.com to automate 7, 8, & 9?
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by npmn on Thursday November 08, 2018 @02:43AM (#18404897)
Hi All, I want to start something similar and I have a list of around 175+ Good Remote developers from around the globe who are looking for Gigs. I am currently looking for a US Based partner who can oversee getting client proposals. My email is in my bio.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by JSeymourATL on Friday November 09, 2018 @04:39PM (#18418275)
Toptal does a pretty good job packaging/marketing remote devs to US based corporate clients...>https://www.toptal.com/

Is your idea different?

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by infinitone on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:30PM (#18400641)
What does Paidlabs.com do that stripe doesn't? Stripe does invoicing AFAIK.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:35PM (#18400675)
When we started in Spring 2017, Stripe did not do invoicing.

(Paid is a YC company, btw!)

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:25PM (#18402083)
Do you plan on continuing to use Paid? Or will you migrate away to Stripe's invoicing?

EDIT: My apologies for the misunderstanding! I didn't realize that you've already built that functionality from your top comment.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:31PM (#18402130)
We built invoicing into our product!

One of our technical needs was auto-charging clients for overdue invoices that were neither approved nor disputed. That's application logic, not something we can use an external system for.

Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by mrguyorama on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:06PM (#18400898)
Why does your website ask to autoplay sound on firefox?
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by owenconti on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:19PM (#18401006)
It could be that chat system in the bottom right? Maybe it makes a notification sound?
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:50PM (#18401220)
Ah, that could be it. It's intercom.io - which is fairly ubiquitous on the internet.
Re:Ask HN: What are some hacks of real founders who did thin... by philip1209 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @01:15PM (#18400976)
No idea - I'm not seeing this on my end. Can you email us (team at moonlightwork.com) and we can debug?