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Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by erwan on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:41AM (#18388902)
I don't have a horse in that race, I'm not even a US citizen - and I must say that whole debate on voter id laws is puzzling to me.

After reading a bit on disparate impact and what constitute the "crux" of the issue, I get why the ID requirement can be problematic if it makes people jump through a ton of hoops. However, the common suggestion that IDing people be stripped altogether just sounds bizarre to me.

I would think a path to resolution would rather include making it easier to obtain an ID.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:03AM (#18388982)
There is not a voter fraud problem in the US. Estimates of the rate of voter fraud in the US put the rate at about 0.0003% or lower, far less than what would ever swing an election. Regardless of whether national IDs make sense for other reasons, there is no issue with voter fraud that needs addressing.

And yet, in the last decade, at least 11 states have passed laws adding new voter ID requirements. Because of the lack of a voter fraud problem, the disparate impact is clearly the main objective of the laws, which proponents of the laws are frequently quite clear about. The idea that they might be used to theoretically avoid fraud is basically a convenient justification that just might pass constitutional muster.

It's not that Democrats hate national ID cards because freedom and Republicans like them because safety. It's that Republicans like requiring voter ID cards because adding barriers to voting benefits Republicans, and Democrats dislike them because adding barriers to voting hurts Democrats. If it weren't voter ID cards, it'd be something else. Previous obvious attempts included poll taxes, grandfather clauses, literacy tests. When those fail, you just make sure the lines to vote in the wrong party's districts are going to be much longer than the lines to vote in the right party's districts.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:16AM (#18389033)
I have never heard a single sensible argument against ID checks at the polls. It's 2018. You can't fly on a plane, drive a car, or buy a beer, lotto ticket or cigarettes without ID but asking for ID to vote is just too much. That crosses the line!
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:37AM (#18389552)
> I have never heard a single sensible argument against ID checks at the polls.

It adds cost and there is no indication of an actual existing problem that it would solve that justifies the cost. Even if you ignore the fact that all actual voter ID proposals have been fairly overtly aimed at discouraging voting among selected groups of eligible voters that tend to vote in a way unfavorable to the preferences of those promoting voter ID, or that several times implementation of voter ID has been accompanied by targeted efforts to reduce access to new/replacement IDs in areas where, again, disfavored voters by the group advancing voter ID love, and even the more basic fact that it adds another point of potential failure due to human error even when pursued honestly, the fact that it to all indications provides nothing of value for the direct, immediate added cost is enough reason to oppose it.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by sheepmullet on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:35PM (#18395845)
> provides nothing of value for the direct, immediate added cost is enough reason to oppose it.

At a minimum it provides more confidence and faith in the voting system. That’s not a small benefit.

It also provides a safeguard against fraud in future elections.

It’s easily worth the small cost of requiring an ID.

The real reason the Democrats strongly oppose it is they currently have a lock on the “don’t care about or follow politics but can be dragged along by friends” votes.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by fjp on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @11:33AM (#18400219)
Sure you should be required ID to vote but only if it is way, way easier to get ID.

I think you may underestimate just how hard it is to obtain ID in most of America. First, you have to locate the 5+ forms: birth certificate, multiple bills in your name at your address, previous id if any, etc. Many people (homeless people come to mind) would never be able to obtain all these records. Trying to obtain a drivers license at age 18 was a massive undertaking and myself and my family and had lived in the exact same house for my entire life!

Now imagine. You're poor. You're working multiple jobs, taking care of your children, etc. Even if you manage to come into the DMV on the first try with all the forms perfectly ready and in order - something the DMV makes nearly impossible - you will still probably going to wait 2+ hours to even get up to the window to start the process. When you add up traveling to the DMV, being there, and coming back, you could be missing the vast majority of a day of work, something that can get many minimum-wage workers fired.

In the abstract, requiring stringent ID to vote seems like something everyone should get behind. In practice in the United States, these laws are only enacted by Republicans that are threatened by shifting demographics. If all poor people in major population centers were voting, the Republican party would all but evaporate, or have to severely alter its message

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by boomboomsubban on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @06:05AM (#18398383)
>At a minimum it provides more confidence and faith in the voting system. That’s not a small benefit.

There's no evidence suggesting a meaningful amount of false votes are being cast by people without IDs. So if you don't think fraud is going on, you won't be more confident. If you do think fraud is happening without any substantial evidence, why would this change make you more confident?

Additionally, allowing voting without an ID also provides confidence and faith in the voting system. Why trust a voting system that rejects people for forgetting their wallet or for being a walking teetotaler?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by soundwave106 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:33AM (#18390794)
There is no national identity card in the United States and there traditionally has been strong bipartisan resistance against this sort of an initiative in this country.

The defacto "photo ID" in the United States is a state issued driver's license. Yes, some places informally use this for age verification as a result. But not everyone has the ability to drive (whether by choice or by disability), so not everyone is going to have this document.

So identification for this purpose will have to rely on a patchwork of various documents in order for it to work. But even considering this, if photo ID were tailored in a bipartisan manner as such to ensure complete access is possible, there probably wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately this does not seem to be the case in some states.

The classic argument you hear, for instance, regarding Texas' often-struck-down-but-still-living-on voting ID requirements (https://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/forms/id/acceptable-fo...), is that a handgun license is considered a sufficient form of voting ID, but a college photo ID is not. I will add, reviewing the document, that from my perspective, it is logically puzzling to me why, for those aged 70 and older, it is okay to have an infinitely expired ID and still be allowed to vote given the typical "voter ID" arguments you hear in favor. Unless there is a "demographic advantage" here that the law is covertly aiming for, that is.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by XorNot on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:02AM (#18390999)
Or put another way: if voter ID were considered a serious issue, then the obvious first issue to solve would be establishing a new national ID system.

This would solve other problems - for example the use of insecure social security numbers as de facto national ID, and passwords, which you give to everybody yet can be used to steal your identity simply by knowing. Like, this is actually a big problem in the US that affects numerous people, and would save the economy million of dollars minimum, probably more, by solving in a secure way.

Then, with reasonable confidence that national ID had the uptake rate necessary to pull it's lack of below the level of impact which would effect elections, you could make voter ID mandatory.

Weirdly, no one ever seems to start with the - far more problematic - "hey national ID is kind of a big problem..." when they propose voter ID though. They also don't start with any data about in-person voter fraud (except if you count all the people who get caught trying to commit it to "prove" it's totally easy to do everytime this comes up).

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by JCharante on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:41AM (#18391358)
Isn't this why states offer State IDs? I lack the ability to drive, but wanted a form of ID other than my passport, especially once I turned 18, which is why I got one.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by soundwave106 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:22PM (#18396159)
It is and if voting id laws are shaped in a non discriminatory manner, this could be one of many alternative documents to the "standard" driving license.

But equal access is what matters here. If the ruleset is such where you make it a lot easier for certain groups to vote over other groups, chances are you will be found to be in violation of the 24th amendment or at least the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. Texas voter IDs have been struck down more often than not so far so obviously a lot of judges have taken a dim view to Texas' intent.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by CompanionCuuube on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:22AM (#18392345)
>The classic argument you hear, for instance, regarding Texas' often-struck-down-but-still-living-on voting ID requirements, is that a handgun license is considered a sufficient form of voting ID, but a college photo ID is not.

It's a terrible argument to anyone who thinks for a moment: A handgun license is issued by a state government agency, often with antifraud features. A college photo id, not so much.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by soundwave106 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:10PM (#18396088)
For that reason I actually think the allowance of identification that has long been expired, for those over 70, is the stronger sign of the direction. Why is old age a privilege in Texas voter ID law in that you no longer have to actively renew your identification documents like the rest of us? It kind of waters down any claim that "fraud" is the real motivation to me vs demographics.

The general media however has focused on the college ID vs handgun permit argument. So it has to be mentioned.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by ubernostrum on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:49AM (#18389374)
The argument against is simply to ask: what real problem is being solved?

And more: the argument consists of digging deeper and asking why, in the past decade, such a sudden, incredible, apocalyptically urgent need has arisen for in-person checks at polling places, with no equivalent need for ID checks with absentee/mail-in ballots.

Fraud with mail-in ballots would be orders of magnitude easier to pull off. Why don't states with draconian polling-place ID laws also have draconian ID laws for mailed-in ballots? Why, in those states, don't you need to bring multiple proofs of identity, residence and citizenship to a notary to stamp your ballot in triplicate before mailing it in? If fraud really was what they were worried about, they'd be consistent across these types of ballots. They aren't.

Also it's worth looking into the whole package of policies that usually comes with these rules. It's not just ID rules; it's a particular kind of ID, and a particular set of paperwork requirements, and closing down ID-issuance offices in certain locations, and closing down polling places in certain locations, and reducing hours for voting at the locations that remain open, and... well, let's just say meditate on that and you'll figure out what "problem" is being solved. If you're still not convinced, just go read the defenders of these policies, in their own words, in court filings, explaining why they're doing this.

Voting is fundamental enough that it should only be restricted in the event of pressing, urgent, demonstrated, proven issues, and only the absolute minimum restrictions should be put in place. Voter ID doesn't "solve" any such issue, and is not the minimum necessary restriction in any event (there are already mechanisms for challenging suspected fraudulent voting, if you're truly worried about that).

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by VLM on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:28AM (#18390746)
"Fraud with mail-in ballots would be orders of magnitude easier to pull off."

As recent bombers have discovered, this isn't the 70s Unibomber era anymore, and every piece of mail is individually bar code tracked and enormous computerized fingerprint databases exist along with CCTV footage and cell phone monitoring databases. Using the US mail to commit a crime in a general sense (not strictly election fraud) would have been fairly untraceable in 1970 but half a century later it would be an extremely foolish strategy. The USPS is slightly less locked down than my bank, but much more locked down than my local food store, for example.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by nathan_long on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:12AM (#18391086)
How does any of that prevent someone from looking at the voting records, seeing that Bob never votes, filling out an absentee ballot in Bob's name, and dropping it in the nearest mail pickup box?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by ubernostrum on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:36PM (#18396503)
So, I lived for almost a decade in Kansas, home of Kris Kobach and his never-ending quest to restrict voting and prevent "fraud".

At one point his office was forced to actually investigate and look for fraud, and what they found... were wealthy people -- typically Republican voters -- who owned properties in multiple locations and were voting at each of those locations.

Absentee/mail-in ballots make that kind of fraud much easier, but despite it being the only fraud he ever found, Kobach never pushed for any kind of purge of multiple-property-owning voters from the rolls, or ID checks for mailed-in ballots. Wonder why...

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by specialist on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:50AM (#18392032)
Probably because you've never heard any one suggest that we not require IDs to vote.

Identity is determined, confirmed during the registration step.

Identity is reaffirmed at the poll site, with both ID and signature verification. (Address and signature for postal ballots.)

The manufactured outrage about "voter fraud" is used to justify ratcheting up the voter id requirements. Specifically, requiring voters have government issued photo id. Which costs money. Which makes it a poll tax. Which is unconstitutional.

Provide government id for free and everyone who supports democracy and enfranchisement is totally on board.

--

Those of us who understand election administration also oppose the unnecessary bureaucratic gatekeeping imposed in places like Georgia. For example, if your drivers license says "chris co255" and your voter id says "chris-co255", even though everything else matches, your registration will be purged.

Cast opposing such kafkaesque draconian measures as partisan if you wish.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by cm2012 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:37AM (#18389092)
1) There's essentially no in person voter fraud in america, so asking for id doesn't help anything.

2) Only 91% of whites, 73% of blacks and 81% of hispanic citizens have a government issued ID, so you're disenfranchising a lot of people by requiring it.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by belorn on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:19AM (#18389467)
Which mean that 9% of whites, 27% of blacks and 19% of hispanics are barred from air travel, being a driver, buy beer, going to bars, participating in lottos or buying cigarettes. I would also guess it also mean barred from trains, sport and concerts (since now days those tend to use personalized tickets to avoid scalping), and visiting a political representative as those places tend to have heightened security.

That is a lot of barred experience. Sounds a bit like second-class citizenship.

Comment, based on the down votes, Is this wrong? Can you buy a air ticket in the US and travel by plane without an ID?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by techsupporter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:16AM (#18389735)
Yes, you can fly without ID. The TSA’s website says as much: https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

At least in my state, you can also travel on a train, go to a baseball game, attend a concert, and buy lottery tickets and cigarettes and beer (provided you look old enough) without ID.

If you want to make a voter ID compulsory, let’s have that discussion but included within it must be that the card is free, available the same day, easy to get on a weekend, accepted by every state and territory and voting location, and has minimal paperwork requirements for all circumstances of birth including home, midwife, unknown parent or parents, overseas, and domestic to two non-citizen parents.

Until you do that, the ID requirement is effectively disenfranchisement and that cannot stand for voting.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by belorn on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:31AM (#18389802)
If ID is only used for voting then that seems like a huge waste for everyone involved.

I wonder how common ID usage is per state. Would be interesting to see how that correlate to state that currently require ID for voting.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:36AM (#18398065)
From your link:

Forgot Your ID?

In the event you arrive at the airport without valid identification, because it is lost or at home, you may still be allowed to fly. The TSA officer may ask you to complete an identity verification process which includes collecting information such as your name, current address, and other personal information to confirm your identity. If your identity is confirmed, you will be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint. You will be subject to additional screening, to include a patdown and screening of carry-on property.

You will not be allowed to enter the security checkpoint if your identity cannot be confirmed, you chose to not provide proper identification or you decline to cooperate with the identity verification process.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by eeeeeeeeeeeee on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:35AM (#18390410)
Yes you can fly within the US without an ID. It requires additional security inspection.

Your argument falls apart anyway. None of the things you listed are rights, they are privileges. Voting is a right.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:47AM (#18390894)
Bearing arms is also a right. Walk into a gun store in any state and try to buy anything without an ID and see how that works out.

I'm personally not in favor of voter ID laws but (unfortunately) there is plenty of precedent for restriction of fundamental rights.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by watwut on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:59AM (#18390547)
I don't understand how are other limitations that goes with not having id an argument? Apparently those people exists and either don't do all those things or id needed for alcohol buy is different then one for voting.

Which based on what I read about issue is often the case. You can buy alcohol on pretty much any piece of paper (student id) while the one for voting has more requirements. You can loose driving license for variety of things, including health, not paying court fees, etc.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by VLM on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:24AM (#18390723)
Its a motivation argument.

If you can't be motivated to drive a car, open a bank account (under KYC laws), buy a handgun, fly on an airplane, hold a legit tax paying job (under form I-9), enter federal controller property such as an office building, buy and drink alcohol, go to a concert, any number of zillions of things, why permit someone that disconnected from society to vote? They have no skin in the game and they clearly do not care enough to put forth the most minimal effort to fix their problem, yet they want to impose their active dis-motivation upon us all by voting and thats somehow good.

If someone is allowed to be completely disconnected from reality but should still be able to vote, should someone completely disconnected from reality be allowed to buy a handgun under an identical argument that anyone should be allowed to do anything they feel like?

Should it be easier for someone to vote for "literally Hitler" without an ID than it is to buy a harmless handgun or hunting rifle? Surely, voting is more important.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by astura on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:44AM (#18391986)
(My uncle is a shut-in with no ID, and a friend of mine didn't have ID for over a decade but otherwise lived a normal life, her husband had ID/driver's license, she took the bus everywhere, and was self employed, so she never felt a reason to get one until she got divorced)

Because there's nothing in the Constitution that requires you to be "connected to society" to vote. Nor is there any provision that says you must be "motivated" (motivated for what exactly??? The things that motivate me are different from the things that motivate you). The Constitution doesn't require you to be employed or even have shelter. The Constitution purposely doesn't say "only people who have HN commenter VLM approved lifestyles are allowed to vote" because the whole idea of "freedom" is allowing someone to choose to live as weirdly as they want to.

>yet they want to impose their active dis-motivation upon us all by voting

No they don't want to "impose dis-motivation" on anyone. Even if they did, that's their right to do so. I don't appreciate a Christian "imposing Christ" on me, and some may vote candidates that want to turn America into a theocracy, yet I don't arbitrarily decide Christians don't get to vote. I also don't want white supremacists candidates to get elected, but I don't arbitrarily decide that white supremacists don't get a right to vote.

Most people who live as shut-ins don't see it as a problem, not my choice to live like that, personally, but I don't tell other people how to live their lives.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by salvar on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:41AM (#18390091)
Probably. But does that justify making it more difficult for them to vote?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by belorn on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:57AM (#18390162)
Depending if those problem are true or not for any given state, but if they are then those issue represent a major problem beyond that of voting.

To take a example from Europe, membership cards from schools/universities, banks, and driving license work as automatic identity cards. For those who neither study, have a bank account or drive then the police should provide one. For the wast majority this mean that ID cards are automatic process of normal life, and for the rest it is a simple matter of requesting one at the nearest police station. As a result almost everyone has some form of identification card or an other.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by salvar on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:51AM (#18390497)
It can definitely indicate a major problem beyond that of voting.

But what does that have to do with voting? Should they have a harder time voting because they already have other major problems anyway?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by belorn on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:38PM (#18395865)
Had to think about it for a while, but I think you answered the question accidentally. It does not have anything to do with voting.

Lets imagine we had a state which got tired of vulnerable and weak social security number. In every place where it is used we replace it a two factor hardware token that include bio-metric data (a photo), issued by the government or institutions like banks that by law are required to follow strict requirement of identification. I think we can both agree that this initiative would not have the goal to make voting harder, nor prevent voting fraud, but rather fix identity theft caused by the weak password-like system of social security numbers.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by hannasanarion on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:00AM (#18390173)
Are you a teenager? I haven't been carded for alcohol purchases in years. I take a bus to work, so I don't need a driver's license. I live every day just fine without ID.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:40AM (#18398081)
No, I'm in my 30s but I have a young face. By the way, I can't rent a hotel room without ID. Can't rent an apartment without ID...can't take out a loan without ID. I think ID is required even to open a bank account these days. Are you telling me you don't have an ID? Or if you didn't have one, that it would be difficult to get one? It's probably more work to register to vote than to get an actual ID and the latter will probably statistically have a bigger impact on your life.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by varjag on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:16PM (#18393465)
Can't you travel by plane without an ID domestically where you live?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by godshatter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:31AM (#18392464)
How can people be so sure there is no fraud when they are not asking for an ID?

Wouldn't it be better to work to fix the problem of a lack of ID than to just throw up our hands and claim we don't need it?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:59PM (#18393304)
Fix the problem of lack of ID first, then we can require ID to vote. Doing it in the other order is an unacceptable infringement on the right to vote.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by specialist on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:55AM (#18392081)
The noise machine also conflates voter registration errors with election fraud.

For example, radical right wing pundit Ann Coulter was registered to vote in two places at the same time. (I don't recall if she also cast both ballots. Unlikely.) That is an error, not a fraud.

Such errors are inevitable in our state-based voter registration database administration. Worsened because only registered people are tracked. Versus listing all people and having flags for their eligibility.

The fix is nation wide universal automatic voter registration. Just like every other mature democracy.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @04:44AM (#18398096)
I disagree on the nation-wide voter registration. Besides being probably unconstitutional, it has an effect of centralizing the power of the vote into the Federal government. It would be very difficult to pull off fraud in all 50 states, but it would be at least 50 times less difficult to do it in one centralized bureaucracy.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by boomboomsubban on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:33AM (#18389303)
The simple argument is that it can be considered a poll tax, and those are unconstitutional.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by LyndsySimon on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:57PM (#18395643)
I've always wondered about this, but haven't dug into it - why is a poll tax unconstitutional, but the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition not?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by boomboomsubban on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @12:56AM (#18397363)
The 24th amendment.

>The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by LyndsySimon on Wednesday November 07, 2018 @03:08PM (#18401947)
Well, there you go :)

Thank you. I'm surprised and a bit embarrassed to admit I was ignorant of the fact that it was clearly spelled out in an Amendment, but am happy to have rectified that ignorance.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by justtopost on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:57AM (#18391509)
Finally, a sensible argument.

I do think an ID that you need to have and is gvt issued should be baid by taxes. But noone likes those.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by elyobo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:41AM (#18389335)
^ said in answer to a sensible argument against ID checks at the polls, you can't please some people.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by awinder on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:11AM (#18391071)
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TangoTrotFox on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:28AM (#18390036)
A couple of problems with this view. The first is that voter fraud is not easy to detect. When I voted all I had to do was walk in, sign a sheet by my name, and go vote. There was no verification or validation of anything. I could have just as well signed by another individual's name. If I was smart I'd do it somewhere closer to the closing of poll times to help minimize the chances that they'd show up. I could then go from station to station doing similar things.

The second is that the past does not predict the future. Politics getting kind of absurd in the US. People are radicalizing to an extreme degree. When people are assaulting and trying to intimidate one another because of relatively minor differences of political opinion, it should be assumed that voter fraud is going to be an increasingly severe threat to election integrity.

Maybe most importantly of all. You don't want to wait until it's a severe issue to stop it. At that point you risk having already have lost the faith of the electorate and that's only going to lead to bad outcomes. You want to preempt bad actors.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:25AM (#18391213)
> The first is that voter fraud is not easy to detect.

Yes, it is.

> When I voted all I had to do was walk in, sign a sheet by my name, and go vote. There was no verification or validation of anything. I could have just as well signed by another individual's name.

You have unusually lax security at your polling places; the standard method is more like providing your name and address, having a poll worker find the matching name/address combo on a list, and then being presented with a page to sign; it's true that the just sign in method you describe is somewhat subject to a “find a blank space right before closing time and sign there” attack, but it's equally the case that that can be (and is every place I've ever voted) mitigated without voter ID.

> If I was smart I'd do it somewhere closer to the closing of poll times to help minimize the chances that they'd show up. I could then go from station to station doing similar things.

If you start after 90% of people have voted and then do it at multiple sites (with a smaller share remaining that will vote at each site), you are fairly likely to get detected—not more likely than not. If you've got a dozen or so people doing that at every federal election (every two years), you'd have a higher expected rate of detected in person voter fraud than we actually have in the US.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by salvar on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:44AM (#18390103)
And as soon as any of these individuals came in to vote and saw that someone had already voted fraudulently on their behalf, an investigation would start. And you'd get maybe what, three or four votes in exchange for the very real possibility of facing severe punishment?

Why aren't more instances of voters realizing that someone has already voted on their behalf if this is so easy and smart?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by pwg on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:21AM (#18390330)
> Why aren't more instances of voters realizing that someone has already voted on their behalf if this is so easy and smart?

I can see two reasons (there are likely more):

1) If someone is going to vote as another, and they are smart about it, they will do some pre-research to pick out likely non-voters to become. Voting as someone else who is not going to vote would not likely be caught, because that non-voter will have no opportunity to notice the 'heist' since they do not go vote.

2) At least in the US, with low voter turnout (55% for the 2016 election is quoted by this page [1]) then someone has a somewhat large chance of simply randomly picking a non-voter as their "surrogate", and if they do win that pick, then that non-voter will not notice due to their not going to the polls.

Now, whether either of these strategies would allow an individual to amass sufficient votes to change an outcome is unknown. Even "close" races in the US often have a few thousand votes difference in the final counts, so for someone (or some group) to change an outcome they either have to find enough #1's above to amount to several thousand votes or have to "win" at #2 picks enough without "losing" at a #2 pick enough to get caught out. So it feels like it would be difficult to pull off a few thousand of these, in a single day, without getting caught unnless a fairly large group is involved. And the problem then (with large groups) likely shifts to keeping the entire group quiet about their activity (i.e., leaks from a group member become the downfall point, not other voters noticing double voting).

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/11/politics/popular-vote-turnout...

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:28AM (#18391233)
> At least in the US, with low voter turnout (55% for the 2016 election is quoted by this page [1]) then someone has a somewhat large chance of simply randomly picking a non-voter as their "surrogate"

Sure, that gives one person doing it one time a fairly reasonable chance of not being detected.

It doesn't give a repeated, signficant pattern of such fraud a decent chance of avoiding detection.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by XorNot on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:21AM (#18391172)
The number of "likely's" in your statement should tell you something about this proposal. What's likely? How many operatives get caught on "likely"?

Because you are proposing - at the bottom end - trying to get at least a few hundred fraudulent votes in, to swing a very close race. That's coordinated votes too - somehow you want to orchestrate this (and this is exactly what's always proposed as being the problem by voter ID advocates).

Let's be generous and say each operative can achieve 10 votes at different polling stations. This is hugely optimistic. So to get to a hundred votes (probably not enough in even the closest races) you need to

(a) find 100 non-voters who you know won't turn up that polls (hint: you can't - it's all probabilities)

(b) find 10 people to pull this off. And to be clear: this is recruiting 10 people to commit serious state and/or federal crimes. Which has a couple of problems - how do you find them? Why do they agree to do it? And what's the probability of any one of them getting caught? - and it is a probability. Remember in this example the numbers are hugely optimistic - so the probability someone gets caught rises rapidly to 100% as you increase the numbers.

which leads us to (c): someone will get caught. Throughout this whole effort you're literally one poll worker happening to know a person, or getting a bad feeling and calling that person's address afterwards, or a neighbor or member of the community hearing "I'm Julie Smith of this address" and going "wait that's not her" - because you're trying to infiltrate a community here, and the odds on election day the poll workers and voters know the names and faces of the people you propose to pretend to be, is also pretty high. So - someone, one of your operatives, gets caught.

Why do they stay quiet about the operation? They're facing criminal charges and jail time. They can be offered a deal if they roll over on your other operatives or you. How much are you proposing to buy their silence with? Why do they take the risk in the first place if not for monetary incentive?

Ah you say - but maybe it's a whole lot of independent actors doing it. Which okay, let's go with that - how do these people, in sufficient numbers, do enough local research to not get caught in sufficient quantity? - remembering that, when people do the "I just show up and say I'm someone else thing" as "activism" - they get caught.

EDIT: Also worth noting - unless the election rolls are actually destroyed, you also need to keep this all secret forever. If anyone has a crisis of conscience later and leaks it, then at minimum you - the coordinator - definitely go to jail since everyone will happily roll on you to avoid it.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by pwg on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:29AM (#18391840)
Ultimately, my point boils down to: "given the possible issues, and multiple avenues of potential detection, any coordinated attempt of sufficient size is likely to be detected".

Which is what is likely the reason why not much seems to be happening, too many angles to "get caught" and so few groups attempt a coordinated attempt.

This was always one of the valid arguments against computerized voting machines and in favor of paper ballots. The paper ballots require "feet on the ground" attacks with high risks of detection. The "hack the machines" attack requires no large coordinated "feet on the ground" groups, and given some of the machines were reported to be internet connected, could be accomplished from a remote (and therefore safe) location.

PS - the number of "likelys" is because I have no sources for anything (beyond the 55% turnout figure) so it is all "guesstimates".

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by makomk on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:15AM (#18391118)
I don't know about the US, but here in the UK voters turn up and discover that someone has voted "on their behalf" merely by accident - the poll staff aren't perfect and sometimes simply mark off the wrong person's name as having voted. This is common enough that, as far as I'm aware, it doesn't lead to any kind of serious investigation. (Apparently, there was even one UK council election in Barnes, Richmond-upon-Thames back in 1976 where an ineligible couple voted, were marked off as being a similarly-named couple who later turned up to vote, and correcting this actually changed the result. This correction was only possible because unlike in the US we don't have a fully secret ballot - every ballot paper is serialized and traceable to the person who cast it. I don't think anyone was charged with anything over this. Probably wouldn't even have been investigated if the affected voter didn't see the close result and kick up a fuss.)
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by danaris on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:29AM (#18391245)
At least in my jurisdiction, it's not simply a matter of the poll worker "marking off" your name: they find your name in the book, then they push the book across the table to you so you can make your own signature in the box next to your name.

If someone is attempting to commit in-person voter fraud, they'll need to sign the name that matches the line they put it in. If they're just mistakenly signing on the wrong line, that will, first of all, probably be obvious to both them and the poll worker immediately, and even if not, it will probably be obvious to anyone coming along behind and checking if there's a discrepancy. (Unless the signature is well and truly illegible, and if that's the case, they can check it against the signature from the previous election for that person.)

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by hannasanarion on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:03AM (#18390196)
> I could have just as well signed by another individual's name.

So you change one vote while taking the risk that you won't be able to match their signature under pressure, or that their signature will already be there because they've voted already or will find yours when they vote later, exposing your scheme. With that chance of failure, is the ten years in jail worth it?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TangoTrotFox on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:05AM (#18392172)
How do you propose I'd be caught? This isn't a rhetorical question. It's just not at all apparent to me. Nearly all detected 'voter fraud' is not actually fraud, but people making ostensibly honest mistakes - such as convicted felons or people on probation voting. And that's because that is basically leaving video footage and your business card at the scene of a crime.

For what it's worth, I agree that the risk:reward is pretty messed up. But we're not the metronome for politics in the US. People are doing all sorts of stupid things, and seemingly getting even more radical. I'm sure you'd agree that there are plenty of people that would think by adding a few votes they'd be doing their part to 'save the world.' I mean there are people assaulting each other over political differences. People are going literally crazy from politics.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by learc83 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:35PM (#18394212)
>How do you propose I'd be caught?

At the vast majority of polling places it's more complicated than "sign a sheet by my name". You fill out a form and tell them your address and the poll worker looks your name up. If you are signing next to a name, the poll worker verifies that you're signing next to the correct name (the one you told them).

In that case, if you tell the poll worker that your name is Bob Smith and it turns out Bob Smith has already voted, you're now probably going to jail.

If enough people to make a difference start doing that, it's going to be noticed.

However, even in your case where you just sign next to a name (I've never seen a polling place like this by the way, and I think your polling place should implement better security), there's a good chance that the person who's name you signed comes in after you. If this happens often enough to matter, there will be an investigation, and they'll probably stop the policy of letting you look at the list of who's voted before you tell them your name.

We know this doesn't happen often because numerous voter fraud commissions over the years were unable to find any evidence of this.

>" I'm sure you'd agree that there are plenty of people that would think by adding a few votes they'd be doing their part to 'save the world.'"

Apparently not, because no there have no reports of people being turned away because someone else already voted as them.

There was a Trump supporter who was convicted for trying to vote twice in 2016, but his most recent voter fraud commission was unable to find any evidence of serious voter fraud--despite desperately trying to do so.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:54AM (#18390945)
> Because of the lack of a voter fraud problem, the disparate impact is clearly the main objective of the laws

Well, that and the fact that the people sponsoring the laws keep getting caught saying that either the racial or partisan impact (or both) are the point when they think no one but their ideological allies is around to hear.

Sure, there's external circumstances and policy action which supports that conclusion without the admissions, but they also keep admitting it.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by bbatha on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:35AM (#18391321)
Let's also be clear. Voter ID laws are not typically tied to national IDs they are typically tied to state drivers licenses and IDs. Which is the crux of the problem since those forms of ID are typically only issued at DMVs and are thus difficult to get for folks who cannot drive or do not live near a DMV. Republicans have also been vehemently opposed to mandatory nationally issued ID cards in the past for fears of federal overreach. Though given the party's current immigration and voter ID stances I'm not sure they'd sit on the same side of the debate the next time it comes up.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by sheepmullet on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:34AM (#18389088)
> Because of the lack of a voter fraud problem, the disparate impact is clearly the main objective of the laws

Or they don’t believe your estimates of low levels of voter fraud.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by amake on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:05AM (#18389423)
Easy solution: find and document actual cases of voter fraud.

Oops.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by Sacho on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:12AM (#18389981)
How would you stage a legal way to do this?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by SolaceQuantum on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:06AM (#18390217)
We know of plenty high profile cases already of people voting in the name of deceased, etc.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by learc83 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:53PM (#18394356)
Take a look at the section on "Dead People Voting".

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/01/more-trump-deception-on-vo...

The vast majority of dead people voting come from reports of states comparing voting records to death records. In one example South Carolina reported that 953 people voted after being deceased between 2005 and 2012.

However when they investigated 207 cases from the 2010 election they found that '106 cases were the result of clerical errors by poll managers; 56 cases were the result of bad data matching, meaning that the person in question was not actually dead; 32 cases were “voter participation errors,” including stray marks on lists erroneously indicting they had voted; three cases were absentee ballots issued to registered voters who cast ballots and later died before Election Day; and 10 cases contained “insufficient information in the record to make a determination.”'

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by amake on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:37AM (#18390420)
How can you justify cracking down on it if you can't even prove that it happens?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by sheepmullet on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @06:23PM (#18395777)
For the same reason I support sensible regulations stopping companies from dumping random chemicals in the water supply.

It’s a basic and sensible precaution.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by VLM on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:37AM (#18390833)
By analogy, are you arguing that we have FAR more criminals committing traffic violations such as speeding than we do serial killers, therefore we should have no laws against serial killing and only punish people who speed on the interstate?
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by ddingus on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:45AM (#18390882)
If we got all the speeders, the impact on everyone would be significant. Like all cars broadvast their speed all the time, by way of voter ID requirement.

So we do not bother.

That said, my state autoregisters people as they come of age and get an ID. Vote by mail has high participation rates.

People can walk into an elections office and vote if they have some difficulty. Doing that is free, they just gotta get there.

People even run ballots out to voters. I did that volunteer work one year. Was cool actually. I helped voters vote.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by ericdykstra on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:51AM (#18388943)
A common suggestion is to just issue the ID free of charge. Considering the state of government invasion of liberty in America, this seems like a no-brainer step in the right direction at minimal cost.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:47AM (#18390891)
ID is free at your local DMV office... which is a five minute drive away if you’re in an area that votes properly, and a three-hour bus ride with eight transfers if you’re not.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by dragonwriter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:51AM (#18390915)
Of course, without voter ID, the same people are just pulling that trick with polling places directly.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:59AM (#18390980)
Indeed. That’s at least a little more obvious and a little easier to resist.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by elyobo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:42AM (#18389344)
Doing things for free is something that the Republicans are also ideologically opposed to though...
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by gmueckl on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:47AM (#18388930)
Mandatory state issues IDs are a cultural red flag for many Americans. This leads to practical absurdities like having the driver's license double as a de facto ID card. As a European, this seems byzantine and unnecessarily inconvenient to me, but such are cultural differences.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by erwan on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:55AM (#18388959)
Ok so as I understand it: the issue is that some socioeconomic classes are barred from voting because they lack an ID. At the same time, people do not want mandatory state-issued ID because they are reluctant to centralization. A reluctance for which I have sympathy frankly.

But then, how about having optional state-issued IDs (like US passports) with low req to obtain?

I'm not saying it's that easy but I want to understand what makes people think it is such an insurmountable task such that they default to the "remove the requirement" strategy. I feel like there is something interesting hiding there. Or is the thesis that these roadblocks are there on purpose to suppress votes?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by danaris on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:36AM (#18391323)
> But then, how about having optional state-issued IDs (like US passports) with low req to obtain?

Not sure if you're proposing to change the requirements to make them low, but US passports do not have "low requirements to obtain." You need a bunch of different documentation, you need to be able to visit a place that can take official passport photos, and you need to pay non-trivial fees. And then you need to wait weeks to get it.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by hannasanarion on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:04AM (#18390206)
The implementers of voter ID laws have said explicitly that their purpose is to suppress votes[1]

1 https://imgur.com/a/LGTGcZT

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:10AM (#18389006)
The thing is states that require ID also deliberately make it much more difficult to get ID.

But I would question why you need ID for voting. Voter fraud is near-nonexistent and you can use the polling card if you want a little more security.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by beaconstudios on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:04AM (#18391019)
you can use a driver's license as official ID in the UK too.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by cm2012 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:54AM (#18388950)
That's the thing - almost all voting rules in the US are decided state by state. And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID AND make ID required. This is not conjecture, its historical fact.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:47AM (#18389123)
Like how many people ARE registered to vote but lack ID?

Less than 1.2% as of 2010, in a survey of voters in three states: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0275074009342892

And in Indiana, the state with strictest ID laws, less than 0.3% of registered voters lacked ID.

In the meantime, for those who lack ID, getting an ID is a good thing.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by icebraining on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:43AM (#18389351)
I'm an outsider, but 1.2% seems quite relevant to me, considering the spread in the last presidential election was just 2.1%.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:12PM (#18393422)
And that is the popular vote, which had a much larger margin than the vote that actually counted. The election was decided by a few hundred thousand votes in the right places, which makes it more like a 0.5% margin.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by rahkiin on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:04AM (#18389200)
People without ID probably don’t register making this number very small
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by VLM on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:35AM (#18390811)
"And states will purposefully make it harder to get an ID"

You're in charge of your state; keep it in line, don't be a victim.

Mine has been forced to give out free state ID cards. Not nominal fee, but $0 cost. You don't need any money to get the required docs to get a non federal real ID card. Real ID compatible cards are also free if you have the docs, but if you don't have the docs you can't live in legal society anyway.

My MiL and UiL are both too old/frail to drive (I'm older than some HN posters) and they have free state ID cards, so I am very recently extremely familiar with this situation.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by cm2012 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:24PM (#18394119)
First, I completely agree that ID cards should be free and easy to get. But it's not quite true that the victims here are in charge of their states. Voting rights rules almost always target minority populations, which by definition are not in charge of the state. The USA should protect people not in the majority as well.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:22AM (#18389056)
No, it's 2018. Nobody is making it difficult to get an ID. 99.99% of adults already have ID. You need ID to rent a hotel, drive a car, buy a beer, buy certain types of chemicals, get a job, fly on a plane, buy cigs, rent a pool table, all sorts of cases.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by cm2012 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:31AM (#18389078)
Actually, 91 percent of Whites have government issued ID, compared to 73 percent of Blacks and 83 percent of hispanics.

It's a huge impact. Just not on the type of people in your social sphere.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://...

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by isoskeles on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:44AM (#18389356)
The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:52AM (#18390919)
Another fun trick is to design the list of acceptable forms of ID such that the right people are more likely to have one that’s acceptable. For example, accepting a concealed carry permit but not a state-issued student ID.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by yazan94 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:03AM (#18391570)
At least in my state, getting a concealed carry permit requires:

* birth certificate, passport, or other paperwork confirming lawful presence in the US

* submitting a passport photo

* have your fingerprints

* notarized application

And after you submit all this, the powers that be have 8 weeks to process it and conduct a criminal and background check where they can reject you for any reason. I've never seen a state issued student id, but I'm fairly certain you don't have to go through all these steps. I would argue that a CC permit should be a valid form of ID.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:40AM (#18391947)
The point is that people who already have a CC permit are more likely to vote a certain way, and the valid forms of ID are deliberately chosen with this in mind to get more of those people to vote.

One could make the case that the CC permit is more secure and this should be allowed, but that’s not how the decision is actually being made.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by yazan94 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:09AM (#18392213)
I totally get your point, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct. But at the same time, everyone who has a CC permit most likely also has a state issued ID, so it really is a moot point.

from above:

> The numbers you posted are specific for Driver's Licenses and Passports. The link you posted notes that general photo ids are possessed by white: 95%, black: 87%, hispanic: 90%.

I am more interested why there are so many people who don't have government issued id's. Why is there a disparity? Is it an active systematic voter suppression tactic or other race-driven conspiracy? Or just how the pieces fall in terms of economic class and where these people live?

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:24PM (#18393542)
I suspect it’s a mix. Historically, it’s probably been due to poverty and documentation, and that persists. Now that ID is being weaponized against certain voters, deliberate disenfranchisement comes in helping to keep it that way.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by CompanionCuuube on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @12:12PM (#18392857)
Which of those chosen were not done so on the basis of objective criteria regarding security? The CCW license and student id example is the most commonly trotted out one, and we've already gone over why one can be considered secure and the other can't.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:20PM (#18393511)
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by godshatter on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:56AM (#18392691)
Some schools allow undocumented immigrants to enroll, giving them a student ID in the process. I'm not sure what a "state-issued student ID" is, but if it refers to getting a student ID from a state land grant institution I wouldn't be surprised if there are some that allow undocumented immigrants to enroll.

I have nothing at all against allowing undocumented immigrants into our schools, but they probably shouldn't be voting.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:19PM (#18393495)
Some places allow them to get driver’s licenses too, but they’re still valid ID.

Edit: it occurs to me that illegal immigration is just going to confuse this issue. Legal immigrants aren’t allowed to vote either, but they can get all sorts of state issued ID. The purpose of voter ID is (or should be) to verify identity, not citizenship. That should be done separately and doesn’t need to be done on Election Day.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by rtpg on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:23AM (#18389268)
Do you need an ID with your current address to buy cigarrettes? Because you need one with your address to vote in North Dakota.

It's not just about having ID. I have loads of cards with my face and name on it. It's about the ID requirements being tailored to disenfranchise certain voters. It's public record that this is the motivation for the people making these laws! There's no debate about the motive, because people are on the record as saying it's targeted disenfranchisement!

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by ModernMech on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:56AM (#18390528)
This right here. When you are allowed to use a gun registration but not a student ID, that tells you everything you need to know about what the intended purpose is.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:13PM (#18393433)
Student IDs aren't government issued. You can get a student ID from a private school.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by isoskeles on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:39AM (#18389327)
Maybe you could provide a link.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by chrisco255 on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:12PM (#18393425)
No, it's not. It's to prevent people from voting for, say, people in nursing homes, dead people whose registrations haven't expired yet, non-citizens from registering, etc.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by nathan_long on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @09:17AM (#18391135)
I agree in principle, and making an ID easier to get makes sense.

However, in my state (Georgia), they're being strict about photo ID and name matching, yet have ignored for years serious security problems with the electronic voting machines which leave no paper trail.

This makes it easy to believe that the ID requirement is about something other than securing the election from tampering.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by elyobo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:40AM (#18389330)
> the common suggestion that IDing people be stripped altogether just sounds bizarre to me

Works for us in NZ. I can imagine that it wouldn't in the US though; I imagine both Dems and Repubs would immediately start bulk scale cheating, justifying it on the basis that the others would be doing it...

So yeah, making it very easy to obtain and ID seems like a sound compromise.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:54AM (#18390935)
A lot of the US already allows voting without ID, and it used to be that way everywhere. There is essentially no cheating that ID requirements would prevent. The numbers are literally single digits per year. (Absolute numbers of fraudulent votes, not percentages.)
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by mikeash on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:44AM (#18390876)
Making it easier to obtain an ID is a much harder fight. It’s not just a matter of tweaking the law. You also have to make sure the opposition doesn’t pull dirty tricks to throw a wrench in the works.

For example, it’s common for a state ID to be freely available at any DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) office. Great, it’s easy to obtain ID! Except the opposition won control of the state government and closed half of the DMV offices in areas that vote against them, and the other half are so understaffed that you have to take a full day off work to get your ID.

This is not a hypothetical, by the way. It has played out repeatedly across the US.

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by XorNot on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:54AM (#18390943)
Or implement mandatory voting (with a nominal fine - i.e. $30 as it is in Australia) and get turn out to reliable +99% margins.

At which point, other reasons in-person voter fraud doesn't happen aside, it would be impossible to actually commit - since the only possible outcome would be a double-entry on election day voter rolls, which can be reconciled and investigated (and the election rerun if the rate of occurrence would potentially alter the outcome).

Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by skorbenko on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @04:57AM (#18389655)
What you propose is perfectly decent and centrist. With the current political climate and the power echo chambers have over people’s radicalization, however, centrists are practically unelectable.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by C1sc0cat on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:42AM (#18390448)
Why do you think that issuing ID cards to all "papers bitte" is a good idea - mandatory presence on an electoral role uk style is better.
Re:Did You Vote? Now Your Friends May Know (and Nag You) by TazeTSchnitzel on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:15AM (#18389031)
A lot of Europe is maybe more enthusiastic about ID than it should be. It is necessary for some purposes but voting isn't really one.