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Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by heimdall on Monday November 05, 2018 @04:29PM (#18386154)
From the comments:

> ITER was designed before the newest generations of superconductors were available. ITER is now succumbing to the escalation of commitment that sunk-costs engender. SPARK [sic] has the advantage of an agile development model and new materials and technology that combined, dramatically shortens the path to breakeven and the reduction in costs to do so.

Just imagine where we'd be if fusion science were given equal footing with other investment endeavors.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by tasty_freeze on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:22PM (#18386530)
The US spends more than $850B every single year on the military. If a tiny fraction of that was spent in gaining complete energy independence, it would pay for itself in that we wouldn't need as big of a military.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by lifeformed on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:10AM (#18389219)
One thing I think about is how boring and unambitious our institutions are. Apple has a quarter trillion in cash just sitting around. They could develop fusion or build some space stations. Bezos has 150B. We are spending a trillion on some shitty planes.

The big money holders only think about incrementing some integers in their bank account. Yeah, yeah, I know why. It's just so... lame. Build a moon colony! Cure cancer! Create free energy! Make experimental cities! Push the limits of human civilization! No, let's instead dump the fruits of society into optimizing ads and making our phones 20 microns thinner and bombing some poor people.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by DennisP on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:49AM (#18390480)
Bezos is spending a billion a year on colonizing space.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by _iyig on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:41PM (#18386671)
It may surprise you to hear that the U.S. is on track for energy independence by 2022, based on increased American oil and gas production (third-biggest oil producing country in the world) and flat domestic demand.

[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/united-states-will-be-a-net-...

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by gameswithgo on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:42PM (#18386681)
Yes, but that won't last very long.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pitaj on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:48PM (#18386722)
What do you mean?
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by gameswithgo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:14AM (#18390282)
There is a fixed amount of oil in the earth. The next barrel of oil is always harder to get at than the last. The USA had a major technical revolution in getting fracking to work, and the price of oil got high enough for it to be profitable, and we did something amazing and are pumping a ton more oil than we were previously. Eventually that frackable oil will run low again too. The price of oil will go up, making perhaps new reserves proftable, maybe those won't be int he USA, or maybe solar/wind will be more attractive than oil at that point.

it is unknown! but we certainly shouldn't make long term 10-20-50 year plans on the assumption that the USA will be energy independent due to oil.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by jhallenworld on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:05PM (#18386825)
He probably means this: https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/e...

Initial production after fracking is high, but drops off fast.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by api on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:03PM (#18386806)
Oil and gas are non-renewable.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Coincoin on Monday November 05, 2018 @09:39PM (#18387897)
“The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.”
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by reubenswartz on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:37PM (#18386634)
A wonderful thought, but the size of the military budget is a feature, not a bug, for those who allocate it.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by jacobush on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:42AM (#18389107)
Maybe we can get the military industrial complex into the nuclear industrial complex instead? Though one must be careful what one is wishing for I guess.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:27AM (#18389787)
From the "Schlock Mercenary" web comic: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a really big gun."

Yes, be careful what you wish for.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by reubenswartz on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:21PM (#18394574)
For the trillions we have flushed down the drain in the Middle East, we could have weaned ourselves off foreign oil with renewables, without even getting into nuclear. Sadly, it goes back to the “feature, not a big” thing. :(
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:09PM (#18388007)
Not to get too far off track, but I always thought in a magical alternate universe in which I could make US policy, I'd modernize the nuclear Arsenal and ditch spending on everything else in the military. Couldn't play global policeman anymore, but nobody seems grateful to the US for that anyway. And let's face it, if it really came to a confrontation with another world power, it will end in nuclear war even if it doesn't start out like that. It seems to me that everyone is still fighting the last war. Why do you need conventional forces in a nuclear world?
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pdonis on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:15PM (#18388319)
> Why do you need conventional forces in a nuclear world?

Because you don't want your only options for dealing with other countries to be "do nothing" and "start a nuclear war".

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:51AM (#18388942)
What's wrong with do nothing? What business is of the US what happens in the rest of the world? I mean as much as people criticize the role they played, I think the world is better off for it. But it's a thankless job. Turning inward and leaving the world to go as it will is a valid strategy. Perhaps even the best one for the US. Nukes are good enough for self defense.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by mijamo on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @03:52AM (#18389384)
All the US intervention are based on pure self interest, nothing to do with policing the world. If anything most of the world would have been better off without US interventions, particularly latin america and middle east!

Now let's say you don't have conventional weapons.

China invades all South East Asia progressively. Would you nuke them? Russia invades Eastern Europe. Would you nuke them? If yes why hasn't the US nuked Russia yet?

Then all your allies suddenly switch side after being overthrown by dictators who are in favor of your enemies. Would you nuke them?

Another one: you are terrorists associations preparing attacks against you in camps all across middle east. Who do you nuke to defend yourself?

Conventional weapons are actually the only useful tools nowadays, because war is much more sneaky than it used to be, and it is much more about fighting for influence than really invading countries or defending you territory.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:32AM (#18389805)
Basically no to all of the above. One can question the wisdom of not standing up to aggressive nation states attacking and conquering other states - and doing nothing. Let's say the US had invented the bomb earlier and was using this strategy during the rise of Nazi Germany. Basically the plan would be to leave Japan, Russia, Germany, Italy unchecked as they conquered state after state until the whole rest of the world fell under horrifying authoritarian rule. Until one eventually comes for the US and both commit suicide. It seems a much worse scenario than the already horrifying one we had.

On the other hand let's say all had the bomb but are reluctant to use it. The nation's fight it out with conventional weaponry until the axis powers, realizing they have lost and with invasion in progress finally feel they have no other choice and commit mutually assured destruction. I think it would be hard to claim that wouldn't have happened given the temperament of some of their leaders. Perhaps in this case the allies would have showed restraint and not invaded to end the war - perhaps they would have been willing to negotiate terms.

I think basically my idea is a terrible one. But I also think the world war II scenario would end in nuclear exchange - the only way to avoid that is not push any power to the point of last resort, and negotiate an unsatisfying agreement that leaves the aggressors in power, no matter what horrible things they do. Would all have shown such restraint, would cooler heads have prevailed amid the terrible atrocities of total war? I'm not particularly optimistic of the chances.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by hulahoof on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:04AM (#18388983)
Would you fire the nukes if a non-mainland territory like Guam or Puerto Rico was invaded?

What if the invaders are non-nuclear armed?

There is a wide range of responses between nothing and total nuclear annihilation, even without world police status.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:09AM (#18389707)
Those cases are refreshingly black and white. Yes and yes.

You deliver an ultimatum, wait for the invader to withdraw. If they call your bluff, you level them. Just a city at a time if they don't have nukes. Wholly if they do. I mean if your going to rely on a nuclear self defense, when someone attacks you, you have to be willing to use it.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pdonis on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @11:28PM (#18397079)
> What's wrong with do nothing?

Sometimes doing nothing is the best response. I didn't say it never was. I just said you don't want that or nuclear war to be your only options.

> What business is of the US what happens in the rest of the world?

Do you use anything not made in the US? If you do, then you care what happens in the rest of the world. Even if you personally don't, enough other people in the US do that you need to care what happens in the rest of the world, because you depend on those other people in the US and they use things from the rest of the world. The world is highly interconnected.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Terr_ on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @02:10AM (#18389005)
> Why do you need conventional forces in a nuclear world?

I think this was addressed quite well 32 years ago -- when everybody was thinking a lot harder about it due to the Cold War -- by the wonderful British comedy series "Yes, Minister":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y-yyaWCgiQ

I considered a TLDW, but I don't think I can do it justice.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @05:18AM (#18389746)
The salami strategy! Thanks for sharing. It makes some good points. Basically you can't defend your allies if all you have is nuclear weapons. Mind you, maybe you don't need allies either. If anyone is foolish enough to invade you directly, you wipe them (and yourself) out. Probably no state is that suicidal to bring on such a suicidal response (isn't that a logical contradiction?)
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Terr_ on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:44PM (#18396249)
Non-stupid enemies simply won't put you in the situation where you "have to" push the button anyway.

In any given encounter, they'll steal a minority of your stuff unopposed, and you'll refrain from the murder-suicide button because staying alive with majority of your stuff is still a better outcome for you.

The pattern will continue until someone acts irrationally and then you've got a lot of people dead for reasons that have more to do with pride than logic.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @08:11PM (#18396384)
Yeah, that sounds about how it would go down to me. Ever increasing provocations until they get into a situation where neither side can back down without looking bad.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Misdicorl on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:41PM (#18388157)
Global police isn't the goal it's the method. The goal is influence and access to global resources.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by andrewflnr on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:21PM (#18388341)
Because a conventional war is still a better outcome than any size of nuclear exchange. Do you really want no middle ground between zero and global nuclear fallout? Everyone knows this and will avoid nuclear way, which is why your assertion that it will come to nukes anyway is overly pessimistic. No one wants a nuclear war.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @01:47AM (#18388928)
I think you're deluding yourself that a war between major powers won't end in a nuclear exchange. If it's a total war anyway. If is just a skirmish then likely not.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by andrewflnr on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @10:02PM (#18396831)
...but you still want to make it impossible to have just a skirmish?
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by eloff on Sunday November 11, 2018 @04:10AM (#18425567)
What for? Just stay back on the defensive and mind your own business.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by ant6n on Monday November 05, 2018 @10:28PM (#18388090)
Influence is gained and lost in proxy wars
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by maxxxxx on Monday November 05, 2018 @07:33PM (#18387316)
Pumping a few billion into fusion research would also be a great jobs program to train highly qualified people.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pfdietz on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:35PM (#18386624)
If fusion were treated on an equal footing with other endeavors it would get almost no funding, because examined without sunk cost thinking it isn't at all promising as an energy source.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by i_am_proteus on Monday November 05, 2018 @05:58PM (#18386782)
I think it would be more accurate to say these things about fusion energy:

- It is not viable yet, and probably won't be for decades, if at all

- Funding necessary to explore fusion energy's viability is at least order of magnitude $10^10

- The 'steady-state' economics of fusion energy, should it become viable, cannot presently be estimated with any real fidelity

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by robotrout on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:09PM (#18386841)
After reading the book "A Piece of the Sun - The Quest for Fusion Energy", I came to understand just how hairy these reactors have grown. A simple idea has needed to have layer upon layer of complexity added to it, up until the point that I'm not sure it would be viable even if it did work in the lab.

Not only will each commercial reactor, should anybody attempt one, be extremely complex and therefore non-robust, but there's still the issue of neutron contamination, making the whole thing brittle and ready for the nuclear waste disposal team to rip out most of it in a few years time.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Retric on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:22PM (#18386921)
A lot of the current complexity relates to the fact these are experiments not production systems. We want to be able to change a great deal of different things with high precision while gathering data, not simply generate power.

Production systems would likely have much higher gas contamination for example and operate at a steady state for months.

Also, ITER is actually rather small from a power production standpoint, 500MW thermal power ~= 150MW of electricity where we have plenty of fusion reactors several times that size. Luckily things get much easier when you scale fusion power.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pfdietz on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:31PM (#18386959)
Not being production systems means entire subsystems are omitted. No tritium breeding blankets, no robotic maintenance systems, not extremely high efficiency tritium purification and recovery systems. Research reactors don't need the materials that could withstand the extreme neutron loading a production reactor would be exposed to. And they don't need to be reliable enough to operate with a high enough capacity factor to pay off the investment, as a production reactor would have to.

As you scale up the power of a fusion reactor, the volumetric power density goes DOWN. This is because it becomes limited by the power/area through the first wall. Square/cube law in action.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Retric on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:38PM (#18386995)
> no robotic maintenance systems ... neutron load.

ITER has full remote handling as it's expected to get extremely radioactive. Scaling reactors up does not really mean increasing the neutron load on the walls as you want to keep that fairly steady per surface area.

Tritium production has ~zero impact on operation. The breeding blankets are really simple, you take lithium and enclose it in a metal of some type. Replace after a few months.

Also, a ~10x device is unlikely to be 50-50 DT as while hard to operate on pure DD fusion it's not that hard to get when you have some tritium in the mix.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pfdietz on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:40PM (#18387008)
Retric: a production reactor would need robots capable of replacing the entire first wall every few years. ITER will not have anything like that.
Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by Retric on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:45PM (#18387033)
ITER remote maintenance system (IRMS) is specifically designed to do just that: http://users.isr.ist.utl.pt/~mir/pub/SOFT_RHSystemsForITER_I...

It's not designed to replace everything, but I doubt commercial designs would go that far either.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by DennisP on Tuesday November 06, 2018 @07:53AM (#18390510)
MIT's ARC is designed to make that easy. The reactor opens right up and you just lift out the inner wall and drop in a new one.

They've already tested joints in the REBCO tape, and found that they introduce very little electrical resistance.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pfdietz on Monday November 05, 2018 @06:28PM (#18386944)
And not only extremely complex, but also very large. Fusion reactors have terrible power density compared to fission reactors. Complex + large = very expensive.

These failings have been known for 35 years or more, and yet still they're largely ignored. If there is a thing called "pathological technology" (in analogy with pathological science) then fusion must qualify.

Re:A faster, cheaper path to fusion energy by pdonis on Monday November 05, 2018 @11:16PM (#18388325)
> Funding necessary to explore fusion energy's viability is at least order of magnitude $10^10

That's only 10 billion dollars. Far more than that has already been spent on fusion.