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Re:iPad Pro by minimaxir on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:28AM (#18337498)
Very impressive demos, but unfortunately the number of apps that can make full use of the increased power is still limited.

A common complaint I saw during the presentation was the emphasis of the A12X for gaming, but Apple is still very bad at incentivizing developers to make games with premium experiences and prices (to say nothing of the lack of an official gaming controller!)

Also, the new Apple Pencil will only work with the new iPads; it's not compatible with previous Pros: https://www.apple.com/apple-pencil/

Re:iPad Pro by vxNsr on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:32AM (#18337545)
> Also, the new Apple Pencil will only work with the new iPads; it's not compatible with previous Pros: https://www.apple.com/apple-pencil/

Because the older pros don't have a way to charge it.

Which is to me another one of those ingenious but now obvious design choices, I know the sGNote series has "wireless" charging for their stylus, but it needs to go into the device to be charged, this is so much cooler because it doesn't require that. I wish that Microsoft had thought of this for the surface pen.

Re:iPad Pro by dpark on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:45PM (#18338607)
> Which is to me another one of those ingenious but now obvious design choices ... I wish that Microsoft had thought of this for the surface pen.

I'm kind of glad they didn't. A pen magnetically attached will likely pop off when you put the tablet in your bag. It's a nice place to dock the pen when you're using the tablet, but poor place to store it in a bag.

People report up to a year of life with the Surface Pen battery. Swapping it out when it dies seems simpler than remembering to charge it regularly.

Re:iPad Pro by xbkingx on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:57PM (#18339505)
Yup. I've used tablet PCs since the Windows XP Tablet Edition days and magnetic pen docks have always been a big no-no. The pens fall off more when handling because you bump into them when repositioning and they're easier to forget or 'lose' because the docking area generally becomes the one place you don't put it. In short, it might be counter-intuitive, but you need to be slightly more engaged with the stylus's maintenance than most people think. Too cumbersome and it impedes productivity, but too 'intuitive' and it will be lost in a week. But, I'm sure Apple will be happy to sell you a replacement!

I've had a Surface Pro 3 since release and have had to replace the stylus battery twice, so I'm getting ~1.5 years per battery. I would much prefer the old hidey-hole stylus dock to Apple or MS's current stylus docking.

Re:iPad Pro by dpark on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:00PM (#18339540)
"Hidey hole" means you have a bunch of wasted space in your device and encourages them to make the pen tiny, though. I much prefer the independent (and full sized) stylus. I rarely use the magnetic docking, though.

I fully agree about the pen falling off when bumped. I can't imaging Apple solved that since it seems like a fundamental side effect of the design.

Re:iPad Pro by vxNsr on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:30PM (#18339161)
> A pen magnetically attached will likely pop off when you put the tablet in your bag.

The surface pen already magnetically attaches to the surface, this would just give that attachment another purpose.

> Swapping it out when it dies seems simpler than remembering to charge it regularly.

You don't have to remember anything, you just "redock" the stylus when you're done using it and it will charge.

Re:iPad Pro by dpark on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:36PM (#18339244)
> The surface pen already magnetically attaches to the surface, this would just give that another purpose.

I'm aware. But it's not "just another purpose". It's a different design. A battery that needs charging is a fundamentally different design choice than a battery that needs replacing. I'd rather a disposable battery that lasts for a year than a rechargeable battery that lasts a week.

> You don't have to remember anything, you just "redock" the stylus when you're done using it and it will charge.

And then you shove your tablet in your bag and the pen falls off. The pen languishes in the bottom of the bag until the next time you want to use it, when it may or may not still be holding a usable charge.

A pen that needs to be stuck to the side of your device regularly is fine for a device that sits on a desk all the time. It's less clearly beneficial for a device that gets handled constantly and goes into and out of bags.

Re:iPad Pro by read_if_gay_ on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#18340771)
>I'd rather a disposable battery that lasts for a year than a rechargeable battery that lasts a week

The science isn't quite there yet with those uranium batteries

Re:iPad Pro by andrewaylett on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:57AM (#18337958)
Unless the Note series has changes dramatically, which is always possible -- I just ditched my Note 3 -- they're using passive Wacom pens. No charging necessary, the internal slot is purely for storage.
Re:iPad Pro by dragonwriter on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:07PM (#18338073)
This was definitely still true through the Note 8; but the Note 9 S-Pen has an onboard battery (mostly, I think, for the remote functionality; the core stylus functionality might use the same tech as before.)
Re:iPad Pro by andrewpi on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:08PM (#18338085)
The Note9 added bluetooth to the S Pen (you can use it as a remote camera shutter now), and it charges inductively when it's inside the phone.
Re:iPad Pro by minimaxir on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:33AM (#18337563)
I figured that'd be the case, but still disappointed.
Re:iPad Pro by unrealhoang on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:17PM (#18338215)
Yes, my wildest dream is that they will release XCode with developer's tools (i.e. compilers), my laptop will be gone that exact second.
Re:iPad Pro by qyv on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:11PM (#18338911)
Why are people so eager to leap from computer OS's (MacOS or even Windows) to these walled gardens like iOS? I can't imagine developing software on iOS, because you know the deployment procedure will be straight to the app store. This ends the ability to create, distribute and install software yourself. Is this really what we want???
Re:iPad Pro by marvinalone on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:28PM (#18339856)
Because the Bazaar is grating.

Out here in the free world, every time you want to use a library, you have to choose between 12 different options, all suck in one way or another, and you really have no way of making an informed choice. So you pick something by gut feel. Half the time you are wrong, and all of the time you worry that you have made the wrong choice.

But if you buy into Apple's cathedral, they tell you what to use, and you use it. End of story. It's always behind the times, and it won't run outside of Apple's stuff, but it works (for now, at least), it's well documented, and you don't have to spend days finding and comparing solutions. You can get back to writing code, which is the fun part.

Is it good business? Good for the world? Maybe not. But it's certainly attractive.

Re:iPad Pro by Xcodeista on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:45PM (#18339334)
Yes, it's what most people want. As a developer, I do not miss the days of trying to drive people to my website to find my app. If you were lucky you could get a mention on a well-known website or one of the many download aggregators, but it was hit and miss. The Mac had some very good ones, but with Windows, not one was big enough to be worth your time. It was a nightmare. Getting noticed on the app store is non-trivial, but at least your product is already in the place where users are going to find stuff. It's one less thing to have to worry about.

As a user, I don't miss having to search the general web to find something for my computer, only to be misled by poor results in the search engine, malware download sites, software that would be the perfect solution but doesn't run on my OS, ads everywhere, etc. Now I have one place to go and everything on it works with my system. Sure it's not perfect, and discovery could be improved, but there's no malware that I've ever run into, and everything I actually need is there.

Also, it's a false dichotomy between PC OSes and iOS. Both macOS and Windows have app stores that their users use.

Re:iPad Pro by tonyedgecombe on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @04:46PM (#18341143)
at least your product is already in the place where users are going to find stuff

Along with a million other apps.

Re:iPad Pro by snazz on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:36PM (#18339963)
I would love it if there were an app like Termux for iOS (if there is, and I’ve missed it, please let me know!). On Android, Termux lets you use the local command line in some sort of chroot where you can install packages with apt. If this were made available to iPad users and it integrated well with Xcode (one of the issues with sandboxing), it wouldn’t be very far off from the macOS experience.
Re:iPad Pro by pjmlp on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#18340768)
Yes, because this walled gardens offer us very nice tooling similar to the Xerox PARC days of yore, instead of lego pieces that we need to sort out new every year, while offering sandboxes that actually protect $HOME from random apps.
Re:iPad Pro by moftz on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:37PM (#18339253)
Because their experience (and probably livelihood) rests with iOS apps. No one is buying an iPad hoping that some day they can write kernel patches on it. If you make your money off an ecosystem, you are going to buy hardware for that ecosystem.
Re:iPad Pro by jaegerpicker on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:21PM (#18338279)
ditto if I could use Xcode on the iPad Pro I'd almost never use my MacBook Pro. That may be why it hasn't happed yet as many of us probably feel that way.
Re:iPad Pro by wlesieutre on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:29PM (#18338404)
>That may be why it hasn't happed yet as many of us probably feel that way.

I don't know about that; one of Apple's hallmarks is that they aren't afraid to compete with their own products. Some companies would have said "We can't make the tablet into a powerful computer, it would cut into notebook sales.

Especially with the USB-C change, these iPads are a serious competitor to Apple's laptops for pretty much anyone except developers. In a lot of ways they're better. Just not for programming because the software is still too sandboxed.

Here's hoping that Xcode shows up.

Re:iPad Pro by jclardy on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:30PM (#18338419)
Same here. Especially with the new hardware from this year. Apple puts a ton of engineering into these new iOS devices, a little sad that the Mac lines don't really get the same treatment.

I feel we are insanely close to this reality though. We have large enough displays now (even on the small one), external display support, external keyboard support and USB-C so we can actually plug in an iPhone into the iPad itself (Though this could have been skirted with the advent of wireless debugging support in Xcode. I'd still rather have the wire though.) Only thing I really want is some kind of trackpad or trackpad replacement. Or even just mouse support and I'll drop one in my bag.

Re:iPad Pro by amiga-workbench on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:33PM (#18338450)
Xcode would need a shitload of polishing to approach the stability and UX standards of an iOS application. I desperately wish they would have a few release cycles of pure stabilisation work.
Re:iPad Pro by saagarjha on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:48PM (#18338649)
That was the whole point of Xcode 10…
Re:iPad Pro by jaegerpicker on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:59PM (#18338777)
10 has been much better for me.
Re:iPad Pro by akhilcacharya on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:28PM (#18338391)
I like my mouse too much for this to be possible.

Selecting/moving text with a finger is more annoying.

Re:iPad Pro by miguelrochefort on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:27PM (#18338370)
I was expecting that. Then I remembered the iPad doesn't support a mouse.
Re:iPad Pro by unrealhoang on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:35PM (#18338478)
I will be good with a wireless trackpad.
Re:iPad Pro by lostgame on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:44AM (#18337771)
>> (to say nothing of the lack of an official gaming controller!)

Apple themselves does not publish an 'official' gaming controller, no, instead they offer a number of third-party controllers at a quite nice build quality at prices that are comparable to buying a new PS4/XBOX controller:

https://www.apple.com/shop/accessories/all-accessories/toys-...

Re:iPad Pro by woolvalley on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:58PM (#18338756)
It's about developers having an install base to make games against. They need to ship a controller with an apple tv, otherwise gaming stays in the casual corner it usually is in iOS.

These iPads are more powerful than any nintendo switch, but nintendo has them beat because they have a dedicated gaming hardware ecosystem. I wish I could use my iPhone like I would a switch, but I can't because there isn't any serious games or first party hardware.

As a result, serious game devs target mobile last, if they do at all. I bought Transistor for my apple TV for example and asked for the first refund of an iOS app ever because it was an crashy mess. I played it on my PC instead.

Re:iPad Pro by saturdaysaint on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:46PM (#18339354)
Making a controller an optional peripheral means that support is an afterthought for most app makers and that games are mostly designed with touch in mind. Nintendo and Sega have showed time and again throughout their histories that optional controllers get little to no 3rd party support.
Re:iPad Pro by minimaxir on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:15PM (#18338194)
That's true; I do have a Steelseries Nimbus, although it feels a bit jank compared to console controllers from other companies.
Re:iPad Pro by SllX on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:44AM (#18337777)
Doubt they would do it, but their own spin on the Nintendo seal of quality, with a floor of $50-$60 USD (and their own spin on "Selects" a few years later dropping some of those prices to $20USD) with some mandates on what that seal of quality means (performance, software features, hardware support, &c.) and they might turn that gaming ship around.

Among their requirements they could list: Apple TV with Controller support (allowing devs to ditch the useless support for the Remote), some online features (some rebranded version of Game Center), Mac support (for Macs that support the latest iterations of Metal).

It's the little things.

Re:iPad Pro by pandakar on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:13PM (#18338933)
Interestingly, one place where this race to the bottom is NOT present is in iPad music apps, synths and DAWs. Prices range from 10 to 50, and the apps are polished.
Re:iPad Pro by AJ007 on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:37AM (#18337643)
You are right about the prices. Expecting a $60 AAA console game for $5 is not going to happen. Free to play AAA games where you end up spending $1000 to do everything means players end up hating the game and paying for fewer games. The alternative is games with truly massive player bases like Minecraft or Fortnite, which isn't scalable either.
Re:iPad Pro by ChikkaChiChi on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:43AM (#18337752)
Nintendo seems to be doing quite well at this. Why would we not have the same expectation for Apple?
Re:iPad Pro by jaegerpicker on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:49AM (#18337851)
Because Nintendo only started being able to do this within the last year and even then only a few big AAA studios are really on board. AAA games on the switch are really limited to in house Nintendo based IP and Bethesda. There are a few others but not a ton. Notable exceptions include Epic with Fortnight but that's also on iOS so it doesn't really prove the point.

So really Nintendo isn't quite doing it yet. Said as an absolute lover of the switch.

Re:iPad Pro by ChikkaChiChi on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:58PM (#18340182)
Fair point, but their SDK is allowing indie developers to fast track access to the ecosystem and hardware.

If Apple had a snap on controller like the one we're seeing Microsoft leaking, it would be game over. A great controller with great support on a refreshed Apple iPad mini would clobber everything on the market and it wouldn't even be close.

Re:iPad Pro by simplify on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @01:30PM (#18339160)
> unfortunately the number of apps that can make full use of the increased power is still limited

Isn't that a good thing? For example, wouldn't it be great if all web apps were optimized for specs lower than the machines we use?

Re:iPad Pro by askafriend on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:49AM (#18337848)
Counterpoint: A full version of Photoshop is coming to iPad in 2019. Adobe announced it at their conference recently. I suspect they'll bring full versions of Lightroom, and all their other Pro Apps soon to iPad.
Re:iPad Pro by killerdhmo on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @04:04PM (#18340809)
Yep; here are live apps:

* Lightroom CC on iPhone/iPad: https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-cc/how-to/lightroom-mobile...

* Just recently announced Premier Rush: https://www.adobe.com/products/premiere-rush.html

Planned/Announced: * Photoshop: https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/photoshop-ecosystem.html * Project Gemini (for drawing/painting/illustrating): https://theblog.adobe.com/introducing-project-gemini/

Re:iPad Pro by tardigras on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @11:52AM (#18337906)
It always takes time to fully utilize a new platform's specs.
Re:iPad Pro by werbel on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @12:21PM (#18338284)
I remember 2005 when was running Windows with Linux in a VM, Photoshop, Firefox, my Rails application and all of the other software I needed for development, music and everything else on a 1GHz AMD Athlon and 256MB SDRAM.

When it comes to software that’s not games and stuff like video editing it seems to me like the most of what happens is “It takes time for new software/updates to show up that once again are able to waste the full extent of my newly acquired processing power”.

I know we get more robust games now, I know we render 4K videos instead of 460p, I know we display UI on higher resolution screens but there’s really no excuse for a software with similar feature scope to take the same resources percentage of modern top of the line hardware as mid-tier 18 years old machine.

Bummer ;(

Re:iPad Pro by yborg on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:25PM (#18339819)
Does the old Pencil work with the new iPads though?
Re:iPad Pro by minimaxir on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @02:35PM (#18339951)
Per the site, apparently not (guess the "can't charge" rationale works both ways)