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Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Geee on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:36AM (#18240070)
My suggestion is that every product should include environmental fact sheet, so that consumers could make better decisions. Every product should be tracked through the supply chain and every process including energy production and transportation would be included in the final product fact sheet.

If consumers would buy more environmentally friendly products, markets would direct every producer and supplier to be more environmentally friendly, without any other government intervention or sanctions. Just make it mandatory to be transparent and to include this information in every product. Put warning labels on products that have missing information.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by bendavis381 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:39AM (#18240111)
Not just that. Companies should have to pay for their emissions. Like how we have to pay local government to take our garbage, companies should have to pay to pollute the planet. It's insane that Starbucks et al can produce as much waste as they want without any requirement to pay for the damage.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by ip26 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:37PM (#18240779)
And the reason that makes sense is it isn't just about "punish the evil corporations!". If the emissions had a price, the price of the product would reflect that.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by codeulike on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:42AM (#18240131)
Good luck getting the oil industry to pay for their externalities
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by jakewins on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:50AM (#18240212)
This is already happening with the EU cap-n-trade scheme. Because it was designed to ratchet, it initially had nearly no effect - but in two years quotas will have dropped 21% from the ones set in 2005; by 2030 they will force CO2-equivalent emissions down 43%.

Companies that emit CO2-equivalent emissions now will either need to retool to lower emissions, or they need to buy emissions certificates from other companies that have retooled.

The end result is much simpler than introducing additional labeling of products for consumers to interpret. Instead, the externalities are removed and prices signal the total cost of production, as they should.

https://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/ets_en

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by harryh on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:51AM (#18240226)
The challenge isn't the oil industry, it's regular people. A carbon tax would just make gas more expensive and people don't want that. Keep in mind that in order to be effective we're not talking about "people just pay more," we're talking about "the price is so much higher, people buy a lot less gas."
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by bendavis381 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:06PM (#18240410)
I would rephrase it as "the price is so much higher, suppliers are forced to develop alternative products to satisfy demand". Energy suppliers have been given massive subsidies for decades because they don't have to factor in the negative externalities. A carbon cost should be a part of the balance sheet in the way raw materials are. Given that, suppliers will have to innovate their way to bring price back down to equilibrium, or go out of business.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by whatshisface on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:14PM (#18240507)
Option one: build solar panels. Option two: poor people no longer drive, and their standard of living falls. Capitalism, if given a pricing signal to "reduce emissions," will pick a completely merciless combination of the two.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by jnurmine on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:01PM (#18241704)
Option three: improve mass transit, to move more people per fuel unit.

Option four: reduce need to drive around by bringing services closer to people and promoting remote working etc.

Option five: remove need to drive for shopping and such by creating "bus for stuff", you order things and get them delivered (near) home.

Option six: convert existing vehicles to electric (probably needs some form of battery innovation and might not be cheap even if price is offset by the raw metals salvaged from the engine).

Just a few examples of the obvious options. The truly clever smart options take more analysis (and a smarter mind than mine) to figure out.

The point: the search space for "reduce emissions (driving) because price of gas is insane" is very large, going full solar or poor don't drive are not really the only options.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by umanwizard on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:20PM (#18240574)
Well, good. Our collective standard of living needs to fall in order for the planet to survive.

If you don’t want it to hit poor people specifically you can subsidize the tax for them.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by whatshisface on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:44PM (#18240877)
Well, there's always option three: keep things going and pray for a technical miracle. That's the default choice and probably the road we're on.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sdornan on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:02PM (#18240348)
How about a revenue-neutral carbon fee and dividend in which households receive the fees that are levied on polluters? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_and_dividend
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by tomjen3 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:05PM (#18241094)
That won't work.

Imagine a collection of average households, not much different from one another. Each household could spend 10 thousand dollars improving insulation, and with the cap and div scheme it would be paid back in 5 years. After 5 years you are net ahead, so that seems reasonable, right?

Except that with the improvements the money they make back is now less, because the total amount of money that gets paid into the cap-and-div is less, so they have essentially lost money, even though the system is supposed to the revenue neutral.

Granted in the real world it would be more complicated because not every household is the same, but the system would still not give us a free lunch.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by NeedMoreTea on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:17PM (#18240538)
This has happened.

The UK had an escalating fuel tax in the late 90s, early 00s. At some point when petrol was around 99p a litre there were demonstrations and rolling go-slows on motorways. I think the demos may have also blockaded refineries. Stupidly, government caved and the escalator tax was neutered. Now fuel is around £1.30 a litre.

It was subtle at first, but by the time of the demos there was a noticeable effect on the roads. For the first time in living memory (mine anyway) they were getting quieter. Most people in my circle didn't seem that fussed by it, they just drove a bit less.

No idea if there was "someone" like an oil company was behind the initial idea of or organising of the demos.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by tw04 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @09:22PM (#18245210)
Which has already happened once in recent history. People seem to have short memories. When gas hit $4 per gallon back during the Bush era, it had a very real effect both on the types of cars people were buying as well as the amount they were willing to travel
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Max_aaa on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:31PM (#18241353)
The whole point is force people to pay the actual price for the good (services) they are getting.

This will force people to abandon extremely polluting habits out of economic necessity.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by mattferderer on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:22PM (#18240593)
I can't see any politician (at least in the majority party) going for this due to the initial impact it would have on the economy by driving prices up significantly on everything.

Maybe if a very left-wing Democratic party was the majority & the Republicans were in the minority this could work. Huge incentive for those that care enough about global pollution to make it more important than the economy. That seems to be the Democrats at this time. I'm not even sure if 100% of them would get behind it.

Since most of the Republican party doesn't take climate change as serious as their Democrats, they could get behind it by knowing the economy would suffer for a while & they could use it as political ammo.

Would be curious to hear if anyone thinks this could work politically, especially truly independent minds in-tuned to "both sides".

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by ams6110 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:33PM (#18240739)
Starbuck pays to have their trash picked up. And the more trash they generate, the more they pay.

Granted, maybe they should pay more, but they can't literally produce as much waste as they want and pay nothing.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by cmutel on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:24PM (#18241999)
The method to calculate there fact sheets (or environmental footprints) is called life cycle assessment, and has been trying to come up with labels for a long time. There have been large projects by Walmart and Tesco, for example, to label all their products. The problem is data availability.

This is an area where the Hacker News community can help. There is an initiative to replace the closed-source databases used to calculate such labels called BONSAI: https://bonsai.uno/; https://github.com/BONSAMURAIS/bonsai (I am one of the volunteers). We are doing the best we can, but could really benefit from people with expertise in

* Semantic web/RDF (to design and populate the larger database) * Text processing (to use the web as a source of data on production and consumption) * Machine learning/remote sensing (to understand the spatial pattern of industry)

There is also an active community focused on energy data and modelling: https://openmod-initiative.org/

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by petermcneeley on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:49AM (#18240203)
They game theory just doesnt work out for this idea. You are basically punishing those who care. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsBvI9oSD1g
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:09PM (#18240450)
Here's a crazy idea: the environmental fact sheet should be the price tag. Price the environmental impact of a product into the product.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:30PM (#18240691)
That seems backwards. If the externalities of manufacturing the product are going to hurt me, the manufacturer should be paying me a discount.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Armisael16 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:34PM (#18240748)
It doesn’t matter where a tax is actually applied - it’ll be split between the seller and purchaser regardless (the exact split depends on the elasticity of the market).
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by TheCoelacanth on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:05PM (#18243221)
You get the benefit of the product, otherwise you wouldn't be paying for it. You should pay the rest of the world for the damage that was done to it for your benefit.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by ip26 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:38PM (#18240798)
Ok, how about where the externalities of manufacturing the product hurts someone in Florida, and you in California are the one buying the product?
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:12PM (#18241166)
I think the manufacturer should be the one paying, not the customer.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Max_aaa on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:33PM (#18241387)
The customer always pays, as all the manufacturers money comes from customers.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by vivism on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:05PM (#18241095)
They wouldn't be manufacturing it if there were no demand for it.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:12PM (#18241159)
Yeah but supply might dry up if manufacturers had to pay for damages out of their own pockets.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by jchrisa on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:30PM (#18250291)
You mean economic growth is a mirage?
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @02:13PM (#18250680)
Well if it's going to take several trillion dollars to deal with effects of climate change, then however much money we thought we had saved by going with fossil fuels over cleaner but more expensive energy sources was actually overstated by several trillion dollars. I don't think that covers all economic growth though. And if a manufacturer pollutes the crap out of a river and gets people sick, I would deduct the costs borne by the people downstream from the profits of the company, at least when counting "economic growth". I suspect in terms of GDP it's a positive, because of the business created for doctors and lawyers.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by jpttsn on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:15PM (#18240521)
The money raised should go to you, right?
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by lossolo on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:17PM (#18240546)
If people would make rational choices based on knowledge there would be no obesity (you have amount of calories on product labels).

People are aware that catastrophe is coming but they are in denial. It's just better to not think about it, like with death, you know it will come but you don't think about it, just carry with your life. And I can see the same exact thing with global warming when I talk to different people. It's better to think that I can't do nothing than think I can do something but I will need to change my style of life.

There are things one can do to live longer but they require sacrifices, do not eat bad stuff, exercise etc. For a lot of people price is too high. The problem is that in case of global warming those people are making choices for other people also.

There is no political will to change things, as every politician knows that the costs for that would be too high today. So that's why they think it's better to postpone this decisions, automatically making the cost a lot higher. There is also believe that someone will figure out a way to stop global warming in his basement and will save the humanity from itself. The problem is a lot more complex than just CO2, it's about the current economic model of the modern society in which we live. Constant growth and resource exploitation are not sustainable for long term.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by lumberjack on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:59AM (#18240321)
Being "green" is not enough. You also have to be a conscious consumer of electricity. If 40% of the online green electricity is going to heating and lighting the empty houses of the rich, that is still not good. Excessive consumerism is still bad even if the entire process uses entirely green energy.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by NickBusey on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:57AM (#18240294)
You're assuming this fact sheet would make a difference in the buying behavior of an average consumer.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by colordrops on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:08PM (#18240437)
Further, this fact sheet should be accessible through an API, rolled up per company, person, and family, and exposed through easy to use applications so anyone could easily know the environmental footprint of any entity.

Awareness is the first step to solving any problem, and measurement and reporting would facilitate this. Perhaps we need more draconian laws that would force this on all corporations and individuals, considering the dire consequences.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by johnny99 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @11:56AM (#18240286)
This is a legit blockchain application.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Junk_Collector on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:05PM (#18240397)
The power required to track the entire human industrial supply chain using a block-chain algorithm would be so incredible that it would quickly dwarf any possible gains. It would in fact be a significant percentage of all total power consumption in the world.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by colordrops on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:11PM (#18240474)
That's an absurd claim. It doesn't have to be incentivized through block rewards, but rather through multiple governments passing laws that they submit a certain amount of mining power. The hash rate could be orders of magnitude less than the current Bitcoin hash rate and still be secure against transactional fraud.

In fact it doesn't even need to be proof of work based, as long as all entities permitted to operate on the chain are known.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:31PM (#18240711)
If the authority for verifying and authenticating entities is centralized, you don't need a blockchain. A centralized, publicly-readable database is the same thing.
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by colordrops on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @08:08PM (#18244932)
Where did I say anything about centralization?
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by sp332 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @09:22PM (#18245216)
"all entities permitted to operate on the chain"

Who does the permitting?

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by colordrops on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @09:29PM (#18245250)
Just because a single entity boots up a blockchain doesn't make it centralized. Satoshi set the initial rules for Bitcoin - does that make it centralized?

If there are 196 countries in the world they could all be registered as valid entities using their respective public keys. New entities could be added is through a soft fork of mining/processing nodes that add public keys to the list, and thus would be distributed consensus like other blockchains.

Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by Max_aaa on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @01:34PM (#18241395)
But then we cannot use buzzwords...
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by cmutel on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @02:16PM (#18241909)
Indeed. Here is a reasonable introduction by people who have a deep background in environmental footprinting: https://lca-net.com/blog/what-will-distributed-ledger-techno...
Re:Climate change and the 75% problem by tomjen3 on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @12:58PM (#18241020)
How negatively would that impact the environment? More importantly how will you deal with people who will read such a fact sheet as how to "own the libs" and buy the worst environmental products?