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Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by SamWhited on Friday October 12, 2018 @11:59AM (#18202316)
I was perfectly fine with this right up until I clicked through to their support page, which pushes Pocket as an alternative. How can they claim to support open standards on the web and lower maintenance overhead while still pushing their bloated built in centralized service that is very difficult to turn off entirely even though it should just be one button? Get rid of RSS and link me to an extension when I open a feed, fine, but then stop shipping Pocket without giving me a way to uninstall it as well.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by d904c456-015d on Friday October 12, 2018 @04:02PM (#18204293)
Also worth pointing out that, even though it's been over a year and half since the Pocket acquisition, the only thing about Pocket that's been open sourced is still just the browser extension junk to integrate it with Firefox.

So it goes like this:

1. Firefox adds integration with a commercial, closed source service (Pocket)

2. People get up in arms about it

3. Mozilla issues some specially crafted statements about the relationship with Pocket (the decision to ship Pocket "has absolutely nothing to do with money"—it's only shipping because Firefox PMs like Pocket); so even if they are receiving kickbacks, this can arguably still be true, but it's widely understood to mean that there's no money changing hands

4. Mozilla's own employees who were taken in by the PR begin showing up in conversations thereafter and explicitly saying there's no money changing hands—because they don't know any more than what everyone else was told in #3

5. It's later revealed that there has, in fact, been a revenue sharing agreement with Pocket, contra claims otherwise

6. It's reported that Mozilla is finally just going to acquire Pocket, and it will become open source

7. Concerns are abated; people move on

8. There is no #8. The open source thing was never true. Pocket remains about as open source as it was before the acquisition.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by gregknicholson on Sunday October 14, 2018 @07:19AM (#18212385)
It was an odd decision to promote Pocket given that Wallabag already existed as an open source alternative.

I support Mozilla's mission, which is why I hate Pocket. It's not just obnoxious — it goes against everything Mozilla is supposed to stand for.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by troydavis on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:13PM (#18202415)
Mozilla's ownership of Pocket taints basically every decision Mozilla makes about Firefox's content consumption features.

Maybe they really are independent, but there's no way to tell and Mozilla's past transparency failures (like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15956325#15956653) haven't earned them the benefit of the doubt.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Dylan16807 on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:30PM (#18203072)
So the issue you're referencing is when they put the code for an easter egg in a dumb spot, which made people rightfully confused and worried.

What does that have to do with independence and transparency?

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by albedoa on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:05PM (#18203860)
> What does that have to do with independence and transparency?

It was a marketing stunt performed in partnership with a television show and was installed without the user's knowledge or consent.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by newacctjhro on Friday October 12, 2018 @04:27PM (#18204464)
It wasn't an easter egg, it was advertising. Preinstalled in my fucking web browser.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Dylan16807 on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:02PM (#18205059)
It was code that did absolutely nothing unless you set a secret flag. It was not advertising. It was an easter egg.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by reitanqild on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:47PM (#18205263)
Background: I've been a Firefox fan for maybe 10 years and I still consider myself to be one

> It was code that did absolutely nothing unless you set a secret flag.

It destroyed a lot of trust. Seriously. I too was really confused when I suddenly saw an extension I never installed. (This could happen before when desktop installers could add extensions but I don't think they can anymore so I was properly confused until K searched for it on the Internet.)

> It was not advertising. It was an easter egg.

Those two are not mutually exclusive :-]

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Dylan16807 on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:50PM (#18205274)
> It destroyed a lot of trust.

The thing is, Mozilla has always had the ability to put arbitrary things into firefox, and it's always had easter eggs in it. The way they did it was a big mistake but from my point of view only because it was scary-looking (and showed their extension pipeline had issues, I guess), not because of what it actually did.

> Those two are not mutually exclusive :-]

How about this: It wasn't there to advertise to anyone that didn't already know about it.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by reitanqild on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:00PM (#18205317)
I'd go a bit further about why it was a big mistake - basically I always knew they could put anything they wanted into Firefox but thought they'd never do such a childish thing in such a scary way.

- but it seems we mostly agree on this.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by emn13 on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:03AM (#18207740)
Would the you of many years ago that first started using firefox similarly have objected to an easter egg?

I still don't have any problems with easter eggs. Give me back my whimsy.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by reitanqild on Saturday October 13, 2018 @12:44PM (#18208812)
You might have caught me in hypocrisy, my jury is still out.

I mean: I too like whimsy, and adding an about:<something noncommercial> would probably be ok with me. (In fact I think there was an easter egg on some about:-protocol-page st some point.)

It was just the sudden surprise of seing an extension I didn't expect and then what at least felt like a hidden commercial motive on top of that.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by emn13 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:25PM (#18287635)
Yeah, they sure bungled that one up well.

Maybe it's the jarring worlds of security! paranoia! Absolute Control! vs. the FF wants to fun! unpredictable! Think different (no wait, that slogan's tainted now...)!

Given the way they present the extensions... it - in retrospect - should have been clear to them it would trigger more initial reactions from the first set of perspectives, and not just the second.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by ldarby on Sunday October 14, 2018 @08:49AM (#18212644)
Easter eggs are generally hidden and take users doing something special to find out about it.

You calling this an easter egg had me confused as to what the hell this thread was about, searching for "firefox easter egg" shows nothing about it.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Dylan16807 on Sunday October 14, 2018 @03:07PM (#18214528)
So this is the looking glass thing.

You could see the existence of the extension because of poor decisions.

But it didn't turn on unless you went into about:config and manually flipped "extensions.pug.lookingglass" to true.

Definitely intended as an easter egg. Even of the people getting upset about the visible extension, 99+% of them never saw the enabled effect.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by ldarby on Sunday October 14, 2018 @05:35PM (#18215518)
You're forgetting what "easter eggs" are IRL - chocolate eggs hidden in a back yard that people have to look for.

The analogy applies to computing in 2 ways: they're hidden, and it's something desirable. Niether of those ways apply to what Mozilla did. Therefore it wasn't an easter egg and you trying to pretend otherwise is just confusing.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Dylan16807 on Sunday October 14, 2018 @05:51PM (#18215644)
The intent was for it to be hidden! That's why it didn't activate! And for the person that would activate it, it was desirable.

They made a mistake in deployment that turned it into a scary mysterious blob. That's bad, but doesn't change the underlying nature of the code.

We can agree that the exact same code in C, not showing up in any lists or menus, not triggering without a magic about:config phrase, would be a clear easter egg, right?

(Also easter eggs don't inherently have to be fun, sometimes they're just someone's initials.)

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by petre on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:52AM (#18206653)
Just don't use Pocket. Maybe then they'll remove it in five years like they did with RSS claiming low usage. If you don't use it there's also no money to be made.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by gregknicholson on Sunday October 14, 2018 @07:24AM (#18212402)
It's on by default. I used to be able to recommend Firefox on the grounds that it was different by design — non-commercial, open source, and supporting the open web. I can't do that now without being an obvious liar, hypocrite and/or idiot.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by SamWhited on Sunday October 14, 2018 @11:04AM (#18213222)
More importantly, on the mobile version at least it is very difficult to turn off all the way and randomly comes back. On the desktop I found the option buried down in the settings to turn it off easier, but I think I still have a bunch of random broken pocket icons scattered about now that I had to dig through about:config to actually remove.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by JoshMnem on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:57PM (#18203293)
I don't mind the Pocket button, but Pocket shouldn't be considered a replacement for RSS/Atom. People need to be able to choose what information they consume, not leave it to algorithms. Algorithmic news feeds are one of the current problems with information on the Web.

I hope the browser will still suggest feed-reading extensions when users land on feeds. Not doing that would be shady.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by newuser12344 on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:43PM (#18205476)
I also don't mind the pocket button and I actually want to use it to save my bookmarks. But two things are making that hard for me:

1) My employer has disabled the button in firefox. I can work around this by signing in in any browser but there is something weird that happens. I think I have to allow all kinds of google javascript spyware to run some kind of captcha to be able to sign in.

2) The saved links do not refer to the original sites I've saved. They are some kind of click-through tracking spyware.

Also the tagging feature seems hard to use. As I recall it seemed difficult to filter using multiple tags.

If it was more like Delicious I'd be happy with it.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jccalhoun on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:26PM (#18203045)
They mention it most of the way through the page after linking to rss addons and a wikipedia entry on feed agregators. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/feed-reader-replacement... I think that's a pretty mild way to push pocket.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by tareqak on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:27PM (#18205163)
I agree. If Mozilla doesn't have the resources to maintain RSS and Atom, then it feels weird for them to still work on Pocket. I know that they aren't interchangeable, but it is a confusing trade-off on their part.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by ihuman on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:10PM (#18202394)
> How can they claim to support open standards on the web and lower maintenance overhead while still pushing their bloated built in centralized service that is very difficult to turn off entirely even though it should just be one button?

Because Mozilla owns Pocket

https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2017/02/27/mozilla-acquires-po...

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by throwaway2048 on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:19PM (#18202984)
This isn't about owning not owning pocket, its about paying for pocket development, while claiming that rss is too big of a burden to maintain.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by dralley on Friday October 12, 2018 @02:56PM (#18203784)
Relative to usage? Because only 0.01% of Firefox users have ever used Live Bookmarks.

I don't know how many use Pocket but I would be shocked it it wasn't far higher.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by kibwen on Friday October 12, 2018 @04:16PM (#18204395)
As someone who has used Firefox almost exclusively since 2004 (ok, there was a year or two of Opera in there...) and as the sort of power user who continues to doggedly consume RSS to this day... yeah, I've never used Live Bookmarks. I remember seeing them in my bookmarks bar on fresh Firefox installs back in the day. The interface just wasn't amenable to my use patterns, and Google Reader was (these days I'm on Feedly).
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by reitanqild on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:49PM (#18205272)
I too never got Live bookmarks.

I'm using feedbro now.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by emn13 on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:09AM (#18207761)
As a user that did use Live bookmarks I would be pretty pissed off if anyone merely by my usage counted me as an excuse to keep supporting that nonsense. I use pocket now - lightly. It's still heck of a lot better than live bookmarks.

Live bookmarks never worked very well, now did it?

What percentage of people complaining about this are actually using the RSS support in FF itself at this moment?

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by choward on Friday October 12, 2018 @10:26PM (#18206046)
Seriously? Pocket as the replacement? The thing that shows me three articles with click bait titles on my homepage? Yep. That's just like RSS...
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jjeaff on Saturday October 13, 2018 @12:08AM (#18206379)
I wonder if you have your privacy settings set as to not allow Firefox to see what you view. Because I have noticed that the articles that get suggested to me have been really spot on for the kind of stuff I like to read. Not click batey for the most part, although occasionally one will feel like an ad placement that they really want me to click.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by xtat on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:35PM (#18205208)
ex-pocketeer here and I'm with you guys on a lot of this - honestly the acquisition was confusing to me vis a vis mozilla's most important core values

all that said, I learned just now that firefox had RSS/ATOM support. Public open standard feeds should never die, but how was this in-browser feature ever useful?

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by zmix on Friday October 12, 2018 @10:19PM (#18206020)
You clicked an RSS icon in the URL bar. A page would pop up, showing the RSS feed styled. Below you would have the choice to subscribe with any configured feed reader, be it desktop or web-service. Totally fit into the browser as a standard tool.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by paxys on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:52PM (#18202759)
Also Pocket is nothing like an RSS client.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jasonlotito on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:29PM (#18204041)
No, they aren't.

People actually use Pocket.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by LUmBULtERA on Friday October 12, 2018 @06:39PM (#18205226)
I know a lot of people who use RSS, but no one who uses Pocket...
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jbigelow76 on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:33AM (#18206604)
Pocket is to the web as tupperware is to dinner leftovers, something I tell myself I'll consume later so I better save it, but really I just end up throwing it away two weeks later and having another container to clean.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jasonlotito on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:58PM (#18205536)
> I know a lot of people who use RSS, but no one who uses Pocket...

You know a lot of people who use the RSS feature being removed from Firefox? Not RSS, but the feature. Because you didn't say anything about he feature, but RSS in general. I use RSS. I didn't use the feature in Firefox.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by cpburns2009 on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:52PM (#18204212)
People actually use Pocket? I know people use RSS but I didn't know Pocket was used.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by jasonlotito on Friday October 12, 2018 @07:59PM (#18205541)
You know people who use the RSS feature being removed from Firefox? Not RSS, but the feature in Firefox?
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by LiveTheDream on Saturday October 13, 2018 @11:38AM (#18208438)
Leaving this for anyone who is trying to disable Pocket...

Go to `about:config`, search for `extensions.pocket.enabled` and switch to `false`.

Not as good as uninstalling, but at least disabling is possible.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by Vinnl on Saturday October 13, 2018 @05:38AM (#18207214)
A pet peeve of mine, but: "bloat" is such empty criticism. It's just repeating that one doesn't care for something, e.g. there are people who claim a tab bar in the browser is bloat and is not related to surfing the web. When people mention bloat, that usually comes down to wanting to inflate the importance of their criticism.

So in this case, the criticism comes down to: I don't like Pocket, and it's centralised. Which I don't think is very strong; the exact same point could be made about Firefox Sync: "they're pushing a bloated built-in centralised service that is very difficult to turn off entirely". Technically true, but really not a compelling argument to remove it or to make it easy to remove all mentions of Firefox Sync from the interface.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by __jal on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:43PM (#18203174)
Yeah, that's just Mozilla attempting to save a stupid sunk-cost.

Pocket:RSS::allowance:salary.

I feel like we're entering a period when a browser shakeup is in order.

Chrome is spyware. Safari is usually an implementation laggard. Firefox makes a seemingly endless stream of stupid, annoying choices. (Never used whatever MS calls nextgen-IE now.)

Seems like it is time, again, for something that sucks less.

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:46PM (#18203208)
> Never used whatever MS calls nextgen-IE now.

Edge. It somehow manages to be worse than IE in many circumstances (including being used to view Microsoft's own websites).

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by emn13 on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:12AM (#18207769)
Are you basing this on the huge costs for pocket?

I use pocket; it's better than nothing. Also: if it weren't for pocket, FF would have some difficulty competing with Googles suggestions, which are pretty OK, really, and definitely enough to keep me occasionally entertained - and without killer feature to beat chrome, why pick FF over chrome at all?

(Some context: I used to use chrome precisely for that reason, and recently switched back because the suggestion feature appears to work less well now, and FF's version is good enough).

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by alwillis on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:46PM (#18209109)
The Safari team has quietly kicking ass regarding web and privacy features: https://webkit.org/status/
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by alwillis on Saturday October 13, 2018 @01:55PM (#18209153)
Brave just recently past 4 million MAU and has made lots of progress the past year: https://brave.com/
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by wmeredith on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:42PM (#18202663)
The Pocket nonsense is what chased me away from Firefox.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by adtac on Friday October 12, 2018 @12:59PM (#18202810)
It is worth mentioning that you can completely disable Pocket integration in Firefox using a flag. Not a solution, though, just a workaround (for now).

(Completely disable Pocket integration in Firefox, the browser. Not Mozilla, the company.)

Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by the_clarence on Friday October 12, 2018 @03:12PM (#18203912)
Nonsense. Pocket and tree style tabs are what make firefox the best browsing experience.
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by owaislone on Friday October 12, 2018 @01:39PM (#18203144)
Did you move to Chrome or something else entirely?
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by emn13 on Saturday October 13, 2018 @09:13AM (#18207774)
What did you switch to?
Re:Firefox removes core product support for RSS/Atom feeds by GordonS on Saturday October 13, 2018 @12:38PM (#18208779)
I actually use and like Pocket, but I don't see how it could be considered a replacement for RSS?