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Re:SMTP MTA Strict Transport Security (MTA-STS) by tptacek on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:46PM (#18097672)
The difference between your threat model and mine is that yours is based on concern for random people running small mail servers. I understand and respect that threat model, though I do not appreciate or really care about it.

On the other hand: I believe email is a technological dead end, and that we are not evolving towards an Internet with a more distributed email system, but with less distribution. I think that, from a utilitarian perspective, the only mail servers that matter are the ones that Google and its peers run, and that's the threat model I care about.

In my threat model, MTA-STS basically eliminates the concern DNSSEC/DANE addresses. Since your threat model includes rarely-used independently-operated servers (note that mine includes things like Fastmail and Proton!), servers that won't have cached assertions, MTA-STS is inadequate for your needs.

The problem I have with your argument is that to fix your problem, which is an extreme niche, you require the radical centralization of all cryptographic trust on the Internet into a tree-shaped PKI whose roots and trunks are controlled by world governments and whose technical underpinnings date back to the 1990s. Even if I was to stipulate that you had a point, DNSSEC wouldn't be a viable answer to it.

But that's a normative argument, and my point about DNSSEC being done is positive, not normative: deployment of MTA-STS is going to end DNSSEC. Not because I want it to (though I do) or because it should (though it should) but because it will: it drives a stake through the heart of the last truly motivating problem that DNSSEC was going to solve.

Re:SMTP MTA Strict Transport Security (MTA-STS) by wahern on Friday September 28, 2018 @06:57PM (#18097719)
> I think that, from a utilitarian perspective, the only mail servers that matter are the ones that Google and its peers run, and that's the threat model I care about.

I'd be surprised if Google doesn't already enforce TLS for other big peers like Microsoft. In your universe, what do we need a broken standard for?

> you require the radical centralization of all cryptographic trust on the Internet into a tree-shaped PKI

Web PKI isn't radically centralized? It's worse than radically centralized, because you can break Web PKI by attacking the weakest CA.

> it drives a stake through the heart of the last truly motivating problem that DNSSEC was going to solve.

MTA-STS may give people cover to pretend they don't need DNSSEC. But make no mistake: it doesn't actually solve the problem.

It's interesting that technical opinions of DNSSEC have devolved into such irrational hatred that people will openly proclaim that fake security is better than actual, DNSSEC-provided security. Yes, DNSSEC is complex. Yes, it has issues with network privacy. But those arguments don't redeem MTA-STS, which is fundamentally broken.

Re:SMTP MTA Strict Transport Security (MTA-STS) by tptacek on Friday September 28, 2018 @07:02PM (#18097730)
If we agree on the positive argument I don't think we have to resolve the normative one. I disagree with you on that, strongly, but do not expect to persuade you.
Re:SMTP MTA Strict Transport Security (MTA-STS) by gerdesj on Friday September 28, 2018 @08:51PM (#18098113)
The difference between your threat model and mine is that yours is based on concern for random people running small mail servers. I understand and respect that threat model, though I do not appreciate or really care about it.

Why should anyone be discriminated against based on the size of their mail server?

Re:SMTP MTA Strict Transport Security (MTA-STS) by pvg on Friday September 28, 2018 @10:07PM (#18098332)
Small mail server people got no reason to live.

  They got little hands
  And little eyes
  And they walk around
  Tellin' great big lies
That's why.