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Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by Aeolun on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#18084768)
After 10 years, most veterans have learned not to care. Or at least, not care too much.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by ravenstine on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:30AM (#18084835)
They pretty much have to because the majority of environments they have to work in aren't hospitable to people who actually care. Hence many of us eventually get to the point of "just make it work" that we once used to scoff at on HN. As with most things in life, software engineers eventually beat the game only to find that there was nothing to win the whole time playing by a set of ideals.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by hinkley on Thursday September 27, 2018 @12:15PM (#18085873)
I carried this torch a lot longer than most. I never really gave it up because I was fortunate enough as a young man to be in some environments that proved to be that for certain values of “right”, doing the right thing now makes you faster a year from now. And it’s painful to watch a project grind to a halt as bad code accretes.

Since I took up gardening I’ve developed a more nuanced view on this. For perennials, there’s a way a plant “should” be but the plant is organic. It has a life of its own. Trying to force it will kill the plant. There is a tempo to bending it to your design and for some plants you need a five year plan to get there, and the plan changes several times.

For software I don’t have that much patience. I change jobs more often than houses, and I expect a team to listen to reason, so the more like a 2 year plan.

To get A you often have to give up on B or C for a while. Pick priorities that are constructive and try not to grind your teeth while the wheels of progress grind into motion.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by dalore on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:26AM (#18084803)
I would say us old timers learn to be more picky about what we care about. It's a finite resource.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by ryandvm on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:38AM (#18084918)
Bingo. As an "old timer", it's not that we don't care; we still love the craft as much as ever. It's just that we are at a point in our careers where we can afford to have a much lower tolerance for bullshit.

Manager says "let's have a weekend pizza party hackathon!!!" and the old-timers are the first to recognize and decline the opportunity for unpaid overtime fixing bugs.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by collyw on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:48AM (#18085019)
As I said in another comment caring about producing good work is completely different about caring about every hyped up new trend that our industry comes up with (usually a rehash of something from 20 years ago).
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by pvarangot on Thursday September 27, 2018 @01:29PM (#18086725)
As a manager I never do nor support hackatons except when the team themselves suggest it's the only way... but when I myself have to code or fix or debug something that needs grind time I still enjoy them. If I'm not getting payed enough to put that hours is another issue to discuss with my manager besides the pizza hackatons themselves.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by fma on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:46AM (#18084995)
In my younger days (I'm only 35 lol) I used to want to apply for jobs that said junk like "fast paced environment". Now I'm like screw that...

I mean every company wants you to work as hard as possible and turn things around...but now I feel the ones publish it want to put you through the ringer.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by HillaryBriss on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:07AM (#18085209)
> "fast paced environment"

yes. and, if I were to pursue a job with such a description, I'd have only myself to blame when the insane conditions started.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by ghaff on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:34AM (#18084876)
That's a great way of putting it. "Choose your battles" in other words. I look back and I can remember getting very wound up about some things that just didn't matter. And, today, I shake my head a little bit at people for whom every single little thing is something to man the barricades over.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by ryandrake on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:13AM (#18085263)
I remember a job as a junior programmer: typical 90’s era C++ Windows application. Compiling it with compiler defaults would spew out a continuous stream of thousands of warnings. This was before unit tests and static analysis were in vogue, so random crashes and errors everywhere. Major performance problems. I argued for code hygiene, fix all these crashes, figure out what’s behind the compiler warnings, etc. The response was predictable to anyone who’s been in software for a while: No, we actually need moar features! Keep spooning features into the software and we will succeed! One of my tasks was actually to write a separate process, a watchdog, that would detect every time the app crashed and re-start it quickly hoping the user didn’t notice. Totally demotivating if you were passionate about software craftsmanship. I started fantasizing that the company would crash and burn, and I would be standing there among the rubble saying, “See, I told you to fix those COMPILER WARNINGS!!”

Never happened. The company simply limped along in this now-familiar “zombie mode” neither succeeding or failing until it was gobbled up by a bigger mediocre company.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by imhoguy on Thursday September 27, 2018 @04:42PM (#18088435)
> I started fantasizing that the company would crash and burn, and I would be standing there among the rubble...

Have you had a part in writing Office Space [0] screenplay? It's Milton's wish.

[0] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0151804/

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by sparrish on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:16AM (#18085293)
We've learned live is a marathon, not a dash. I'll churn out stable code; I'll deliver on reasonable deadlines; I'll do my darnedest to make the product the very best I can. But I'll do it at the pace of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. I have a family and a life outside of your corporation that I truly value more than this, or any, job. I'm no rockstar. I build stuff that gets stuff done.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by swalsh on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:55AM (#18085087)
I have about 12 years of experience, occasionally I'll find myself really interested in some tech. But generally speaking, the technical problems don't interest me anymore. I find myself more fascinated with the business problems. But generally speaking, businesses have been structured to exclude the developer from these problems until it is dev time, in which case the problem is presented as "here's an issue, here's what we want you to build to fix it". So in general my passion has been lost. Finding a company where I can be present during the solution finding phase has been difficult with my pay level.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by arkh on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:28AM (#18085400)
Domain Driven Design.

As a dev you usually stumble upon it for the architecture / coding part. But those are just details. The Domain part is all about the business: where do you add value, what things you can outsource because they're not at the heart of your strategy, which projects should get your better people etc. So I think it can be a good bridge for people who come from tech and want to dabble in the business part of their company.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by thetrumanshow on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:03AM (#18085167)
I worked for a small web-consulting agency for 3 years that allowed me to be a part of everything from the sit-down consultation with the client, to the estimation of engineering effort, to the design/build, and to the demo and support of the production version. Its not a given to have this access and you generally have to ask for it, but it is available to you if you ask.

Pros: I learned how to listen to customers, create proposals that tend to close, and upsell... all while being able to build the end product. This has helped me to close a good number of side projects after I moved back to working for larger companies.

Cons: The challenge working as an engineer in these small firms is that your resources are limited to the budget of the customer, which can be too small to do top-notch engineering work. You can generally find the balance without sacrificing too much quality, but you will never be completely satisfied with your work-product.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by saiya-jin on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:41AM (#18084945)
It's hard to truly care in any soulless corporation that cares only about profits and IT is seen generally as a pure cost centre (banking is worst in this, but others are not stellar either).

Another aspect is meaning of life - if your response is work, then you either have that 0.01% type of work which really matters (and is hardly IT, maybe in Red Cross/MSF style), or much more probably you are just lying to yourself.

Life has so much more meaning outside of work, outside of sitting in front of computers. The older you get the more clear this should be, even if you started as a hardcore IT geek. I know I did, but boy am I glad I moved on.

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by ryandrake on Thursday September 27, 2018 @11:21AM (#18085326)
I used to be that stupid guy who would actually bring work home and do it for free after hours, because I loved programming so much and didn’t have any hobbies. Then I slowly realized it was not getting me ahead at all so switched over to just doing my own little hobby/learning projects at home, that all went nowhere, but hey I was programming and programming is fun! These days I don’t even want to get near a computer when I’m done with work. I’ve got a kid and non-technology hobbies that are more fulfilling.

I still enjoy programming, but it must be purposeful, there must be a goal and a plan. I won’t just habitually open a terminal and start programming something “because programming.”

Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by saosebastiao on Thursday September 27, 2018 @10:31AM (#18084850)
I've learned to reciprocate care. I owe no loyalty to a company that refuses to appropriately value my contribution.
Re:Hire people who aren’t proven by mixmastamyk on Thursday September 27, 2018 @12:32PM (#18086106)
Funny story (now), caring too much once got me "separated" from a high paying job, when an impulsive lead walked in and took over our project shortly before what would have been a successful delivery.