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Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by ndarilek on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:11AM (#18066941)
Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that same identity's feed on my phone.)

I want to participate, but periodically I check https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices... and it hasn't changed, and for me, having a single device to which the entirety of my identity is tied is a non-starter. Even so, the tech seems interesting, and I hope that limitation goes away one day.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by lucideer on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:37AM (#18067269)
There's been a good bit of discussion since but unfortunately a lot of it has disappeared from the web and has only been viewable from within the Scuttleverse ever since this change was introduced: https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay/commit/b5b3732069d413e92579...
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by ChristianBundy on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:59PM (#18069358)
That's just the Patchbay code for opting into the viewer, here's the change made to the viewer: http://eight45.net:7718/%MeCTQrz9uszf9EZoTnKCeFeIedhnKWuB3JH...
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by lucideer on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:07PM (#18070488)
Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that change. I actually thought it was opt-out (hence referencing a client).

That will quickly render the web viewer useless. I wonder where and how that decision was made. There was a previous discussion about this a few months back that I saw but the consensus then was not to go ahead with it. Obviously the way overridden along the way.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by gregknicholson on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @07:40AM (#18074866)
The people who run the web viewers decided that they only wanted to show content from people who had actively opted in.

But no-one's in charge. Someone else could make a web viewer that shows all public posts without opt-in. (Public posts on SSB are signed cryptographically but not encrypted.)

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by lucideer on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @08:11AM (#18075062)
True, but since ssb-viewer is the reference viewer maintained by Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium, my main question here is: what's the point of having a web viewer at all if 99% of users use default settings and don't explicitly opt-in?

The other question is: is this a good precedent to set for the community. I'm imagining a lot of less tech-literate SSB users could interpret this opt-in feature as a guarantee of the privacy of their SSB posts, which it certainly isn't.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by gregknicholson on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @08:36AM (#18075266)
Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium is a jokey name that a few early developers adopted. It's taking the mickey out of people who adopt nonsense official-sounding names to make it sound like they have authority. They may as well be called “SSB Social Technology Systems Conglomerate Worldwide Inc”, which would be just as meaningful.

> what's the point of having a web viewer at all if 99% of users use default settings and don't explicitly opt-in?

So you can choose to share your posts on the web.

> The other question is: is this a good precedent to set for the community.

I think it is: thinking about whether other people would want you to republish their content; asking first; consent. You can, but should you?

> I'm imagining a lot of less tech-literate SSB users could interpret this opt-in feature as a guarantee of the privacy of their SSB posts, which it certainly isn't.

Yeah, there's a lot of misconception. I don't think the SSB ecosystem is worse than the alternative centralised services here though. For example, I think some of them claim that “your message will be deleted after x minutes”, but they forget that someone could just take a photo of the screen

Public means public, and it's always technically possible to republish a public message. It's always been controlled by social conventions not technical means.

I think it's a good thing that the SSB community is asking moral questions about how should you treat other people, and not just questions about what the tech makes possible.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by lucideer on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @09:55AM (#18075940)
> Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium is a jokey name

Of course, but that doesn't change their authority. They have a website, a Github organisation; it is the public centralised face of the software development efforts, no matter how jokey the participants consider it nor how fluid the membership.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by ChristianBundy on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:24PM (#18077559)
I agree. I don't think members of the SSBC view themselves as authority figures, but it's true that push access to the reference implementation is a form of power.

Solutions like git-ssb are an improvement, but it's a hard problem to solve: when a stranger asks you for the code for the web viewer, is the correct answer just to give them what you personally run? If so, that seems similar to what the SSBC is doing.

I'd personally love to hear more solutions to this sort of problem.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by omnimus on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:20PM (#18068337)
Another limitation is the need to keep the whole database on the phone (mine is few gigs).

Solution ive seen many of the serious users use is raspberry pie running patchfoo at home and connecting to your rpi.

Added hustle and you are basicaly centralising it for yourself.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by aassddffasdf on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @08:20PM (#18071640)
Hey, somebody should build a beowulf cluster of Raspberry PIs running patchfoo and offer some sort of cloud/SaaS for everyone else.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by crypt0x on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:01PM (#18068822)
The patchfoo tunnel is really just a stopgap for me until a native soltion is available. it’s also a good option for no having the secret on the device, though.

re size: you really don’t need _everything_ locally all the time. You can delete unused blobs easily, which take up most of the space.

It’s all very implementation specific as well.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by rotexo on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:17PM (#18071023)
Interested in this—are there any tutorials on the subject you can point me to? Seems like it would be a great use for a pi, and I have one collecting dust at home. (Edit: spelling)
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by omnimus on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:26PM (#18071429)
Well i think you can follow patchfoo instalation from github. I think crypt0x (user in comment bellow) wrote it. If you will struggle just search/ask on scuttlebutt. It is actually very nice small community.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by mundo on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @04:19PM (#18070147)
Would this be solvable by integrating support for Keybase or something similar? Come to think of it, someone else complained about the amount of local storage this uses, and Keybase includes some gigs of free cloud storage as well...
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by acobster on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @10:28PM (#18072233)
In theory, yes. I asked this exact question on the scuttleverse a while back and the answer was basically "that might work." This was back when I was still using my old iMac, which is still the only device my scuttler identity exists on. Heh.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by crypt0x on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:55AM (#18073725)
is it gone? Otherwise you just have to recover the .ssb/secret from your $HOME.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by acobster on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @01:38PM (#18078356)
It's not gone. I'll transfer my ~/.ssb stuff over one of these days.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by sktrdie on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:19AM (#18067024)
Wow that seems like a pretty weird limitation. Wouldn't you be able to use the same password on a different device?
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by jeswin on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:37AM (#18067270)
SSB is basically a database log that syncs with your peers. Your log is immutable and message order is preserved - every message+previous_hash is signed - a hashchain that enforces order. Your peers can verify that the log has not been tampered with (both order and contents).

This doesn't work with multiple devices, since they'll be two different logs. However, there is ongoing work to support multiple identities. One identity could broadcast that another identity is a "sameAs" - causing friendly peers to sync with the other identity as well.

Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.)

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by tomcam on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:41PM (#18072017)
> Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.)

A luxury not shared by marginalized persons, such as closeted gay or trans folks, political dissidents in repressive countries, or conservatives in Silicon Valley

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by marchenko on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:15AM (#18073186)
Your comment makes me think I'm misunderstanding identity management on SSB: don't marginalized folk usually maintain multiple "firewalled" social media identities? Is this not the default state of the Manyverse, with users hacking identity correlation by claiming "I, X, am also Y (proof)"? The worst case scenario here in terms of false claims and doxxing does not seem different than the mainstream social media services - am I mistaken?
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by lucideer on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:25AM (#18067100)
SSB uses a simple immutable ledger per identity; merging isn't something that's supported architecturally.

Their plan is to support this at a client level: you create multiple identities with metadata indicating that all are the same person on different devices, which clients can then use to group them appropriately in whatever way makes sense.

UX wise, it may make sense for some clients to obscure this architecture from new users somewhat and treat them visually as the same identity, but that's down the line (and I'm sure some purist clients will never want to do this).

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by staltz on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:27AM (#18067136)
And progress has been to get there with the recent v3 of [ssb-friends](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/)
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by marknadal on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:04PM (#18068183)
I've been telling Dominic and Juan (even Feross, Mathias, etc.) that there is a simple fix for this with CRDTs (GUN's or not) since 2014 - Dominic (SSB) has been the most cutting edge, he adopted some CRDTs I think for log relay, why not also for identity?

Skip to 11:45 into the video, the algorithm/cryptography for it isn't that hard either: https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorith... you could do it in SSB without needing gun!

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by xj9 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @04:22PM (#18070172)
the only way to share identity in a crypto-cap system is to share privkeys, which is a big no-no. much, much safer to have multiple privkeys that are linked with signatures. you probably shouldn't think of ssb id keys as having a 1:1 relationship with a person. they are more like device keys, the person ID is a higher level construct that is expressed by publishing links that assert that a set of keys belong to the same agent.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by ChristianBundy on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @04:32PM (#18070249)
This is similar to how it works with applications like Signal: each device has its own keypair and a person can have multiple devices. The only difference is that currently we don't have a universal way to do this, although it is in the pipeline.
Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by marknadal on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:52PM (#18070826)
You can think of keys as being a device key.

But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device - unless that device is the user's brain.

So either way, you're still gonna have to use a system to manage it that looks 110% like the MIT Open Source security/cryptography code anybody can rip from us.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by notriddle on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @08:42PM (#18071742)
> But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device

They need to mutually confirm it. If keyA says sameAs keyB, and keyB says sameAs keyA, then they should be considered merged.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by xj9 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:31PM (#18071967)
there is no account

only capabilities

accept this, find peace

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by marknadal on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:33PM (#18077650)
Please don't, we need more competition in the space.

If you guys do this, you'll shoot your user adoption in the foot.

Do you really think XYZ millions of users moving from FB in the next decade, when they come to SSB or NAB, are going to choose the one that is intentionally more complicated/confusing/harder-to-use?

Get passwords working in cryptographically secure ways and the world will be at more peace.

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by xj9 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @02:58PM (#18079140)
competition implies taking different approaches. i don't think that the cap approach is inherently more confusing. the point is, there is more than one way to make a good UX on top of differing cryptographic primitives. you have one method, and that's fine, i think that capability security is a better approach so that's the path i'm taking.

i don't care about millions of people. mass adoption is fine, but i don't care about the people who already have internet, smartphones, and need convincing to drop their shitty spyware android device. i care about the billions of people who are coming online in the next 5-10 years. i'm developing[0] a stack that integrates hardware, software, and p2p/mesh protocols to compete directly with telcos and OEMs.

when you include hardware security, the user experience of per-device keys is much nicer. you need a passcode that is used to protect your device-entangled key and that's it. new devices pair like bluetooth, securely handshake, and publish `sameAs` depending on the type of device. users don't need to worry about anything beyond the device passcode. projects like dark crystal[1] make it easy to generate and distribute an emergency key that can be used to restore access to your devices if you forget your code.

[0]: https://heropunch.io/

[1]: https://darkcrystal.pw/

Re:Manyverse – A social network off the grid by ChristianBundy on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:27AM (#18067141)
Exactly this. You can use the same identity on multiple devices, but if you post on both devices at the same time you're going to fork your feed.