News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by clarkmoody on Sunday September 23, 2018 @10:30PM (#18054615)
Search for "gun rights" in Google, and the Wikipedia feature box on the top-right of the results page is the Gun Control article.

I've noticed the straight search results making a marked decline in quality over the past few months. If one of the keywords within your search is anything remotely profitable, it will drown out all other terms. Then the search results ended after ~4 pages.

Definitely changed from the Google I "grew up on."

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by brandonjm on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:37PM (#18054847)
> Search for "gun rights" in Google, and the Wikipedia feature box on the top-right of the results page is the Gun Control article.

That could have a very simple explanation: There is no Wikipedia page for "Gun Rights". There is however a Wikipedia page for "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" which is exactly what appears in the Wikipedia box on the right or as the first Wikipedia article when you search for "right to bear arms", "right to guns" and "arms rights".

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by Lazare on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:36AM (#18055056)
> That could have a very simple explanation: There is no Wikipedia page for "Gun Rights".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_rights is a valid link, and seems like the obvious wikipedia page to deem relevant for that phrase. And Bing gets it right.

I have no reason to think it's some dark conspiracy, but it's certainly a pretty silly failure of their vaunted algorithms. Are there a lot of searches for common phrases where a Wikipedia page exists and Google returns a different Wikipedia page as the top item?

It's a bit like searching for "USA" and getting a result for "Canada"; just because the canonical wikipedia URL is "United_states" doesn't mean that a page about a different country is more relevant. :)

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by creaghpatr on Monday September 24, 2018 @07:20AM (#18056719)
It’s not a conspiracy when emails leaked of employees discussing how they could put their thumb on the scales of sensitive political topics
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by intended on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:58PM (#18063476)
It is a conspiracy, if there’s proof of a conspiracy.

Put a finger on the scales, show us how it’s done.

Modeling this behavior, without tilting the scales completely is perhaps impossible.

I’m interested in seeing how such code could work, while scaling and not creating artifacts. I can’t think of anyway for such code to be deployed without breaking search and letting attackers gain even more

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by brandonjm on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @02:22AM (#18064042)
> it's certainly a pretty silly failure of their vaunted algorithms.

I totally agree, it could be as simple as the algorithm finding more usages of 'gun' and 'rights' on the Gun Control page than on the Right to Bear Arms page and basing its decision solely off that. However it could be as complex as skewed data in a deep learning model that takes in every users search term and subsequent selected result. No one really knows exactly how its decided except Google's own engineers.

The fact that most other, very similar search terms provide the expected results suggests to me that it is not an intentional misdirection, otherwise the other search terms about guns would also show the Gun Control page.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by 24gttghh on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:53AM (#18058730)
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by partiallypro on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:53PM (#18054889)
There is a "Gun Rights" page on Wikipedia (at least that's the slug,) Bing pulls it to the top of the results for that same query (along with advocacy groups.) While Google puts "Gun Control" at the top right. So, I see OP's point. I do have a hard time believing that is purely algorithmic.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by acct1771 on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:31AM (#18055038)
Or, it's a well-trained algo. Either way.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by Covzire on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:36AM (#18055058)
"Well" "trained", indeed.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by tumetab1 on Monday September 24, 2018 @09:00AM (#18057277)
I think you, and others, seem to ignore that deep learning bots produce what the data contains. The data maybe be skewed in one direction or another, as in, it may be the case that most content is for gun control and most users seek gun control content.

The philosophical question is if a search engine return what people want or should return return what is most biased for truth and informative.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by atypicaluser on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:30AM (#18058506)
> I think you, and others, seem to ignore that deep learning bots produce what the data [and the rules it uses] contains.

The bot uses data, sure, but like the humans it also--

* Chooses what data it uses based on... * The rules that make up its processing which in turn are... * Influenced by the peculiarities of its creator(s).

Those last two can't be emphasized enough. A subject matter expert, for example, will choose data differently from a layman, who will choose data differently from someone completely ignorant on the subject. Someone driven to keep certain data suppressed will choose data differently from someone driven to research the matter, who in turn will choose data differently than someone wholly disinterested in the topic. Unless a person builds a bot with a 'willingness' to question both its data and its own programming (and perhaps even its creator) to present the best linkage the web has to offer, all bots will be mere dummy proxies of the creator programming it.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by justtopost on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:31AM (#18058520)
As of you could decide either... even optimsing in good faith for either outcome could have serious drawbacks as we may be seeing here.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by ekianjo on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:17AM (#18055193)
You are wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms

This is coming right up when you look for "gun rights" on DuckDuckGo.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by jasonlotito on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:26AM (#18057926)
That's the top Wikipedia link in the search results when searching for "gun rights"

I don't see the issue.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by partiallypro on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:41PM (#18059675)
He's not saying it's an issue that "right to keep and bear arms" is the top result on Bing/DuckDuckGo...it's that on Google it's not, it's "Gun Control" which is not the top result on Wikipedia nor is it necessarily a related term. The top organic result on Google is a tag page from NPR. How is that even possible for such a popular topic? That's something you'd expect from a rare term.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by jasonlotito on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:48AM (#18063677)
I know what he said, and I'm saying that the top Google result for Wikipedia was that entry in the organic results. As for everything else you said, it's meaningless.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by partiallypro on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:26AM (#18067113)
But the top Wikipedia article (if you use Wiki's own search tool for that term) is not what Google showed...so I don't think you do.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by HeadsUpHigh on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:49AM (#18056019)
DuckDuckGo gives you this https://www.nationalgunrights.org/ as the first result with this being the first wikipedia resulthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_keep_and_bear_arms along with news articles about gun rights.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by ehnto on Monday September 24, 2018 @02:42AM (#18055520)
I'm not sure I could define it as intentional and nefarious but I definitely find Google search results to be markedly worse over the last few years. It used to be really competent at finding specialist/technical results but lately it's gotten more generic and less useful. It's possible that's actually the nature of content creation these days, with everyone hyper optimising to please the Google search algorithm. But it's resulting in a less useful web for me. Certainly a less interesting one.

Same thing with Youtube, the algorithms seem to optimize for the lowest common denominator and all the interesting niche stuff is lost in thr noise.

Some of the solution is to do a better job of actively searching for good content instead of waiting for the algorithms to recommend it. But that itself has gotten harder too. Finding good content curators is hard.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by garyclarke27 on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:55AM (#18055797)
Agreed - Particularly infuriating, is Google’s habit of returning search results with many missing terms, implying that they know whats best for me- ignoring a large part of my precisly crafted search input. I know there is Verbatim option, but this is another slow step and does not work in combination with valuable time filter. Wish there was an option to always use Verbatim and more default time filters such as 3 months, 6 months.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by ehnto on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:55AM (#18058745)
Absolutely. That is one of my biggest pet peeves. There must be a threshold where it would rather give you well ranked but worse matching results over low-ranked but well matching results. That threshold seems to be too low hence the generic garbage results for really specific terms.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by apatters on Monday September 24, 2018 @05:24AM (#18056160)
I believe a major reason for the widely observed decline in Google's SERP quality is that SEOs got too good at gaming the system. The Panda and Penguin updates a few years ago kicked off a trend of prioritizing content from highly authoritative domains (e.g. big brands) even when that content is less relevant to your search query.

Google has been doubling down on this direction progressively--their justification being that people game the long tail by producing a lot of low quality, highly niched content.

There may be no real solution to this within the context of Google's PageRank-inspired algorithm and this may be an opportunity for disruption.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by ehnto on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:00PM (#18058789)
I can definitely see that being part of the issue. Having been a dev in the boiler room for a few heavy SEO reliant domains, it was remarkable the kind of low quality articles people would spin and Google would eat up, especially before Penguin and Panda. The blame can't all be put on Google, the SEO industry is a dirty place that consistently pushed out small producers of genuine content in order to make a buck.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by fetbaffe on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:19AM (#18055899)
It has become harder & harder to find videos on YouTube you know exist. Feels like the algorithm i geared to find new content rather to find what I'm looking for.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by mfukar on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:30AM (#18055944)
Interesting. I have the opposite experience. Searching to try and find _new_ content just presents me with videos/playlists I usually have already clicked/watched.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by fetbaffe on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:52AM (#18056034)
That is what my YouTube home screen looks like, old already viewed content, however not the old vidoes that I need again.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by eudora on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:30AM (#18057972)
I get this too.

It's bizarre to see "video you watched 4 times 5 years ago" on your homepage. Every day.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by cylinder on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:43AM (#18056000)
Basically all the results these days are just from news articles on other sites.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by nl on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:47AM (#18055769)
Regarding the "Gun Rights" fact box, the different results Bing and Google use here looks to be the results of an edit war[1] over how the page should redirect.

Judging by the text in the box, Google appears to be using a snapshot possibly around June 2018[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gun_rights&action...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gun_control&oldid...

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by int_19h on Monday September 24, 2018 @05:37AM (#18056225)
I don't see a redirect to "Gun Control" in the page history. It is currently a redirect to "Right to Keep and Bear Arms", yes; but before that, it was a disambiguation page that had a brief explanation of various meanings, and links to several other, more detailed pages. So if Google captured that, shouldn't it be linking to that disambiguation page?

Even then, one could imagine that the Google could somehow detect that it is not a particularly informative page, and pick the most likely disambiguation link out of it. Logically speaking, that would be first link in the list. But before the page was changed to be a pure redirect, it had the following blurb at the very beginning:

   The term "'''Gun rights'''" may refer to:

   * The legal concept of the [[right to keep and bear arms]]

   * [[Gun control]], the set of laws or policies that regulate the
     manufacture, sale, transfer, possession, modification, or use
     of firearms by civilians.

   ...
So, why would the algorithm pick the second link, specifically? And why hasn't it re-indexed the page since?

FWIW, I don't think this is the case of deliberate changing of search results. But I suspect that their algorithm is inadvertently picking up bias from somewhere else, and applying it here.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by brightball on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:14AM (#18058361)
Is there a good site out there to analyze "edit war" pages of wikipedia?

I've always been curious of locked topics to see some type of analytics breakdown. The most hotly edited items are generally the things I'd most like to see surfaced.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by Const-me on Monday September 24, 2018 @08:45AM (#18057192)
Also, google shows the "Right to keep and bear arms" wikipedia article on the second place, however it adds "Jump to Gun violence and the politics of the right to bear arms" link.

When asked "gun rights", google added the link to the only section of the article discussing gun violence. They obviously manipulate their search results pushing political BS :-(

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by nadont8 on Monday September 24, 2018 @03:27AM (#18055689)
Search for "american inventors" if you want to have some laughs.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by tzs on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:01AM (#18058238)
If you search for "United States inventors" you get the list you were probably expecting.

Google seems to like to include results appropriate for common phrases if you include only part of the phrases. My guess is that the "american" in "american inventors" brings in results for "african american inventors" too.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by DenisM on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:49AM (#18058140)
Apparently this has been going on at least since 2016: http://www.unz.com/isteve/great-moments-in-google-american-i...
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by MrEfficiency on Monday September 24, 2018 @09:18AM (#18057380)
wtf whyy

EDIT: To clarify, why is that list so bad?

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by TangoTrotFox on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:00PM (#18059291)
Imagine you were searching for 'american basketball player' and the selected individuals were predominately white. And on top of this you had guys like let's say Mike Dunleavy Jr. placed ahead of Michael Jordan for no apparent reason. Do you think this would be appropriate?
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by nadont8 on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:16AM (#18057821)
It's not organic; Google has editorialised it in a racist way.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by fetbaffe on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:11AM (#18055866)
Yes, I have noticed that google search result are much worse the past three months, even for non political stuff. Top ten results are usually from big media corporations.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by eudora on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:29AM (#18057958)
I was searching for an exact phrase in quotes the other day, which happened to be close - but not the same - as a popularly monetisable phrase.

The entire results were full of the other phrase and not the one I searched for.

I kinda hate AI.

(Because it's dumb. Do what I told you, not what you think I want)

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by scruffyherder on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @12:16AM (#18063553)
I thought I'd try it..

https://imgur.com/a/7GHeVZM

槍枝管制 "gun rights"的圖片搜尋結果 槍支管制是指任何對定義、限制或限制擁有,生產或改裝,進口,運輸,銷售和/或使用槍械的法律,政策,實踐或提案。 槍支管制的法律和政策在世界各地有很大的差異。有些國家,如英國和中華民國,擁有非常嚴格的槍支限制政策,而其他國家,如美國,有相對溫和的限制。槍支管制的支持者普遍認為,普遍民眾擁有槍支會導致危險性。 維基百科

/

Gun control Search results for "gun rights" Gun control refers to any law, policy, practice or proposal that defines, restricts or limits the possession, production or modification, import, transportation, sale and/or use of firearms. The laws and policies governing gun control vary widely around the world. Some countries, such as the United Kingdom and the Republic of China, have very strict gun restrictions, while others, such as the United States, have relatively modest restrictions. Proponents of gun control generally believe that the widespread possession of guns can be dangerous. Wikipedia

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by prawn on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @01:09AM (#18063751)
Aren't these two statements a bit contradictory? e.g., the suggestion that they've editorialised "gun rights" to something (control) that would lead to less profitable results, but the statement that they doctor their setup to favour commercial enterprise?
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by dsfyu404ed on Monday September 24, 2018 @05:46AM (#18056277)
This will mostly depend on whether your geoip returns a blue swamp or a red swamp.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by eudora on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:31AM (#18057979)
I wonder if you're in your own filter bubble.

As in, if some full blown NRA guy searched gun rights, what would he get?

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by minitel on Monday September 24, 2018 @12:47PM (#18059173)
Logged out of any Google account from a work IP address (not used for much personal searching) and I get the same result.

Info cards are not influenced by your account's history as far as I know. They are purely programmed by a combination of bots and hand tweaked responses. The hand tweaked responses come from a combination of user complaints/requests and internal pushes by engineers.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by rb666 on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:27AM (#18057929)
Gun control = gun rights. Just a different, and more popular and common, way of looking at it.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by partiallypro on Monday September 24, 2018 @10:44AM (#18058108)
Perhaps in Europe, but not in the US. If someone is searching "gun rights" in the US, it is very unlikely they are wanting to know about gun control.
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by jakecopp on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:03PM (#18054740)
Might just be more web pages about profitable products?
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by bigiain on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:28PM (#18054822)
Also the people selling things via their webpages are very much more likely to be investing effort in SEO than "non commercial" web pages...

(And, as much as Matt Cutts might deny it, it seems inconceivable that Google do not use revenue generated by advertising as a search signal...)

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by skgoa on Monday September 24, 2018 @04:00AM (#18055813)
That's part of the issue, but Google also automatically extends your search terms with words that it believes are relevant to your search. I will also give certain words a higher relevance based on what ti believes you are really searching for. Unfortunately this often leads to search result pages full of entirely irrelevant results, while pages containing the exact words in your search term are few and far between, if they are shown at all.

This is my biggest gripe with Google's search engine. It used to be that you could specify exactly what you want to get and it would find it for you. Now it thinks it knows what I want better than I do, so it refuses to show me things I know exist and that every other search engine will find with very simple, straight-forward search terms.

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by gaius on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:32AM (#18055244)
Search for "gun rights" in Google, and the Wikipedia feature box on the top-right of the results page is the Gun Control article.

It is known that Google employees have the capability to skew search results politically, just not whether they do it in specific circumstances (of course it would be robustly denied)

https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1M1041

(For those that say “good” remember that tomorrow this could be used against you. I am certain it was used against Bernie for example)

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by forapurpose on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:11PM (#18059402)
> I am certain it was used against Bernie for example

That would be important if it were true. Can you back it up?

Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by gaius on Monday September 24, 2018 @01:40PM (#18059657)
Just a suspicion based on Eric Schmidt being so involved with Hillary’s campaign. But the link I posted shows that there are no technical barriers to doing it, and that doing it is openly discussed within Google
Re:Why I’m done with Chrome by dagenix on Monday September 24, 2018 @02:38PM (#18060165)
You are certain? Or, are you suspicious? Those are pretty different statements. And it seems you lack evidence to back either one.