Brain Drain Within the EU?

Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by ericd on Saturday September 22, 2018 @12:39PM (#18046677)

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice. But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing with that kind of BS. If they were able to get their houses in order and make running a business there simpler, I imagine that many people would be more willing to start them there. Until then, it's a nice place to vacation before returning somewhere else to get work done.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by KSteffensen on Sunday September 23, 2018 @01:36AM (#18049557)

Come to Denmark. It's been rated in the top 5 world wide on the 'ease of doing business' since 2012 and ahead of the USA since 2015. [1]

Pretty much all bureaucracy happens online and my experience as an individual, is that it's minimal. I've never tried running a business , so I can't say anything on the bureaucracy there.

We don't have that nice Southern France climate, though.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by petre on Sunday September 23, 2018 @02:43AM (#18049736)

Denmark has crazy high taxes. I know several cases of people moving to Switzerland and other EU countries to escape the tax burden.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by NeedMoreTea on Sunday September 23, 2018 @06:35AM (#18050418)

Yet plenty of people have relocated to Denmark, Sweden etc because the extra quality of life is worth paying for.

I know two who did, neither now intend to ever come back to the UK with its austerity and constant wish to move in the US direction. One later got relocated by his firm from Denmark to Sweden.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by ciumonk on Sunday September 23, 2018 @08:20AM (#18050752)

And a crazy good social safety net. If you're having any sort of difficulty(ranging from depression to bankruptcy), you'll get adequate state support(income, subsidised housing and healthcare) for a long time. I wonder why more people don't start businesses there, given that it's seldom fatal to risk and fail..

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by gurumeditations on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:27PM (#18054818)

I’d guess because the people who really have the money to start a business aren’t poor enough to worry about having to live on the street if it fails. Also, perhaps the strength of the safety net makes people feel less of a need to be entrepreneurial.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by KSteffensen on Sunday September 23, 2018 @05:59AM (#18050322)

Tax rate is somewhere between 40% and 60% depending on your income and spending patterns, but consider that we also have free education up to and including PH.D level and free healthcare.

Of course, everyone has their own take on whether that's good or bad.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pSFfTG42Jl8

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by badpun on Sunday September 23, 2018 @09:35AM (#18051007)

Poland has a flat tax rate of ~19% (if you run a business or are self-employed - a lot of developers are self-employed here) and it also has free health care and universities, up to PhD level... You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by Eug894 on Sunday September 23, 2018 @01:35PM (#18052131)

  You don't have to pay 60% taxes to get these.

Exactly. Poor Western Europeans are robbed by their corrupted governments, IMHO. In Ukraine programmers pay only 5% tax, when everyone else - around 40%. So, come to us! : )

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by petre on Sunday September 23, 2018 @02:00PM (#18052286)

Isn't it kind of exagerating to call western EU governments corrupt and invite investors into Ukraine, a country that struggles to get out of Russia's grip and had several swift regime changes, a poisoned president and an ongoing war in the last 20 years? Also, tax extemptions for a job sector that isn't threatened in any way are discriminating.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by Eug894 on Monday September 24, 2018 @06:02AM (#18056353)

Well, yeah, unfortunately majority of Ukrainians are not smart enough to overcome those problems (mainly with Russia). But even without IQ qualification for voting, I hope, they will be able to rule over the state right. I don't participate in voting as you can guess from my profile...

Regarding the taxes. They are not that discriminating! Because in absolute values other workers may pay to the state even less than programmers. A good programmer may earn up to $3000 every month, so $3000·5% = $150 is what he gives to the state in taxes. An ordinary worker earns (official stat) $350 a month, so he gives only $350·40% = $140. I am not sure about 40% though...

We also have very low prices here too. For instance, potatoes cost only ¢15/kg, so if you are European or American you are welcome to spend your money here : )

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by petre on Monday September 24, 2018 @08:45AM (#18057187)

So in absolute values poor people are ripped off (live off $210) while IT workers are well off (live off 2850$). How is that not discrimination? A flat rate of 19% for everyone, like Poland has is quite fair in comparison. Other countries in Central and Eastern Europe have cheap food producs as well:

https://bit.ly/2MYtD1l

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by Eug894 on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:31AM (#18058514)

That is because they are doing useless jobs or work which is not yet in demand here. If they invested in education or some equipment which were raising in demand, they would be fine. Many of ordinary workers in Ukraine emigrate to the EU actually - even more would do that if the EU did not establish those discriminating boundaries with visas : )

But the main reason of their poor life is corrupted government which have been here for many years and which didn't give them opportunity to invest properly (not everyone can be a programmer, I admit). We had several hyper-inflation periods with banks going bankrupt, with too complicated legislation no one seriously followed, unfair privatization of former state property, policemen killing and robbing people, etc.

...€2.32 for 1 kg of potatoes in Norway?! I got a millionaire idea.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by ericd on Sunday September 23, 2018 @11:06AM (#18051381)

Oh nice. Yeah, Denmark seems like a great place to live.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by Bayart on Saturday September 22, 2018 @06:19PM (#18048311)

From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by ericd on Saturday September 22, 2018 @06:41PM (#18048381)

At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by JPKab on Saturday September 22, 2018 @10:12PM (#18049030)

Who do you mean by "their"? And which Americans have you observed? It's not a monolithic culture.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by ciguy on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:04PM (#18046796)

I also considered hiring people here. After looking into the regulations and dealing with the government in other areas I realized I'd need a full time lawyer just to deal with the bureaucracy while I ran the business. There's just absolutely no reason to participate in the economy here, it's too deeply dysfunctional.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by petre on Sunday September 23, 2018 @02:41AM (#18049724)

The root of this problem is bureaucracy + nepotism/cronyism combined, as opposed to bureaucracy alone.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by oneplane on Sunday September 23, 2018 @09:42AM (#18051035)

But that seems to be limited/worse/more when you get 'halfway' through France on the map, it's more abundant when you get in the mediterranean areas. Not sure why, but it's an observation; it's almost as if the concept of work replaced the actual merit of work.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by petre on Sunday September 23, 2018 @02:09PM (#18052326)

France is quite allright in this regard, it's other EU countries that are more worying: Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, not necessarily in this order.

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Re:Brain Drain Within the EU? by oneplane on Sunday September 23, 2018 @05:55PM (#18053489)

Yeah, it's not all of France, and the national policies make sense, but it seems that the closer you get to the Mediterranean sea, the more the quality and work-merit balance tapers off.

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