News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by jopsen on Friday September 21, 2018 @04:07AM (#18038004)
For all the criticism of how wages have stalled in the west, in the world as whole capitalism does pretty well :)

But the toxicity of capitalism often stems from the polarized debate, I don't actually think many wants capitalism without regulation, or communism without free property rights... but it's hard to argue for the sane middle ground when you're attacked from both sides.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by simonh on Friday September 21, 2018 @07:15AM (#18038820)
Personally I think wage stagnation has largely been due to huge reserves of labour in the developing world coming into the market. The worst thing you can say about capitalism in that regard is that it's Capitalism that has enabled those people to raise themselves out of poverty and contribute and participate in the global economy. How terrible!

However those reserves of labour are largely getting tapped out. Wages for factory workers in China have been rising dramatically for a while now. There are other challenges coming , such as increased automation, but again that's not really directly the fault of capitalism. Meanwhile while wage growth has slowed, we've all benefited hugely from the cheap goods and services enabled by these changes. I really think it's much more about technological and demographic changes rather than capitalism per se. If anything, we've suffered from too much economic development, technological advances and global growth.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by r_smart on Friday September 21, 2018 @07:56AM (#18039007)
One of the things people often seem to overlook in the US is that at about the time the wage stagnation started, we also began the process of roughly doubling the workforce by removing barriers against women entering the labor market. Then, as you say, another labor surplus was generated as the developing world has come into the market.

It's rarely as simple as supply and demand, but there seems to me to be a correlation between stagnant wages and large increases in the labor pool.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by simonh on Friday September 21, 2018 @03:05PM (#18041910)
And house prices as well, particularly here in the UK. Households increased their earning power through female employment, then used that capital to bid up house prices against each other.
Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by gwright on Saturday September 22, 2018 @01:56AM (#18044701)
It is important to consider total compensation and not just cash wages. I'm assuming when you say "wage stagnation" you are referring to cash wages. Here is some data that includes total compensation: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-...

    According to BLS-generated compensation cost indices, 
    total benefit costs for all civilian workers have risen 
    an inflation-adjusted 22.5% since 2001 (when the data  
    series began), versus 5.3% for wage and salary costs.
[dead]
Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by AnimalMuppet on Friday September 21, 2018 @01:06PM (#18041088)
> Huh, without non-capitalist moves (socialist, communistic) then we'd still have mills that pay in their own currency, that you can only spend in the shop that the rich owner also owns...

The non-capitalist moves that stopped that nonsense were union moves, not socialistic or communistic.

> ... we'd still have voting as a reserved right for rich landowners. That's capitalism.

That's feudalism, not capitalism. It was democracy that undid that nonsense, not socialism or communism.

The rest of your rant shows that you are very bitter, but it does nothing to either enlighten or persuade.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by simonh on Friday September 21, 2018 @03:19PM (#18041980)
Indeed, fundamentally capitalism is about individual economic freedoms to own and invest capital. A private shop owner is just as much a capitalist as a corporate CEO.

Also capitalism is in no way in opposition to other individual freedoms such as unionism, liberal democracy, etc. You can have capitalism without them, just look at China, but I would argue that as a freedom, capitalism is most naturally aligned with other such personal freedoms.

As you point out rubber baron and oligarchic systems are based on suppressing freedoms, including often individual rights over capital. Corporate scrip isn’t capital, so clearly it’s iuse is actually anti-capitalist by restricting individual rights over capital.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by pbhjpbhj on Friday September 21, 2018 @03:57PM (#18042221)
Democracy, unions, they're anti-capitalist. They cause people to be valued above their worth as a tool to bring financial gain to the capital holders.

The distribution of resources according to what will make the rich richer is not the best way. The private ownership of means of production is simply theft, there's no need for it and no moral justification.

Ultimately we're greedy by nature; capitalism rewards that greed, feeds it and deifies it.

I haven't set out to persuade you; if you seek to persuade yourself of what is just I have no doubt you will reject capitalism.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by AnimalMuppet on Friday September 21, 2018 @07:07PM (#18043348)
> The private ownership of means of production is simply theft, there's no need for it and no moral justification.

If I have some money, and you have some money, and I buy a tool and you buy some beer, I have a tool and you don't - so I'm stealing from you? [Edit: Note that the "means of production" can be as simple as a wrench, or a sewing machine, or a welder.] Step away from the marxist koolaid, you've had a bit much...

And you're only a half step away from theft yourself. Stating that "the private ownership of means of production is theft" leads almost inevitably to "therefore the public need to take back the means of production from those who have them". That's theft.

> I haven't set out to persuade you

You sure haven't. Stating as fact things that are completely outrageous from the other person's perspective is not a very good tactic of persuasion.

> ... if you seek to persuade yourself of what is just I have no doubt you will reject capitalism.

You should doubt. You should also find a better line; "if you really seek truth and justice you'll agree with me" is a manipulative cop-out. You want me to be persuaded? Make a convincing argument that makes sense to someone who doesn't already agree with you.

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by thelasthuman on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:11AM (#18058322)
It's possible for the workers to buy their own tool and maintain some level of democracy in the workplace.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

I think it's disingenuous to think the only way workers can own the means of production is to take them from someone else.

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by simonh on Sunday September 23, 2018 @05:17AM (#18050212)
Capitalism is about individual freedom and individual responsibility. The British giant Marks & Spencer started as a market stall, Michael Marks borrowed £5 to set it up, it now has revenue of £10bn and employs 84,000 people. He could have bet that money on a horse, but instead you would like to steal everything he and his later business parter worked for in the name of 'justice'. Communism and Marxism have been tried many times, they're supposed to be based on empirical evidence and scientifically based, but the experiment has been tried over and over again and it's failed every time.
Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by thelasthuman on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:13AM (#18058347)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

I think it's disingenuous to think the only way workers can own the means of production is to take them from someone else.

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

Re:Decline of Global Extreme Poverty Continues but Has Slowed by thelasthuman on Monday September 24, 2018 @11:01AM (#18058236)
People can own property under communism, it's capital that cannot. Who owns the property where we do business? The workers, not the state (which IMO shouldn't even exist under communism).