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Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by swebs on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @07:10PM (#18028393)
Wow, from 140 years to 110 years.

For comparison, patents only last 20 years.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by vlehto on Thursday September 20, 2018 @03:15AM (#18030368)
Patents last 20 years only if you keep paying the maintenance fees.

Edit: Here's and idea: The yearly fees for copyrights ought to be something like X = years from publication, fee is X^X. So the first year would cost a dollar and the 10th year would cost 10 billion dollars. You can keep your copyright as long as you want!

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by Spivak on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @08:13PM (#18028689)
The goal of copyright is not to put works into the public domain, it's to allow the creator to extract all the possible value from their work. This has been the basis for every copyright extension and the courts have agreed seeing little value in letting works go public domain.
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by telchar on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:38PM (#18029095)
Presumably you're speaking cynically about how copyright is treated. For the official, stated reason:

Article I Section 8. Clause 8 – Patent and Copyright Clause of the Constitution. [The Congress shall have power] “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”[0]

[0] https://fairuse.stanford.edu/law/us-constitution/

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by CraftThatBlock on Thursday September 20, 2018 @12:19AM (#18029764)
I think the key word there is "limited times", which someone could argue that 140 years (even 110) is no longer limited, but "unlimited" for the authors/inventors lifetime.

I do agree that copyright could last longer than patents, although the current laws are made to grant copyright for many (~6) generations, while patents are for only ~1 (all depends what you call a generation, I estimated at 20-25 years).

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday September 20, 2018 @02:02AM (#18030109)
So the goal is to enable authors and inventors to have exclusive rights to their respective writings and discoveries? Out of curiosity, how many authors and inventors do you think live 110 years after their writing or discovery?

And of course this is securing for a limited time to authors and inventors. In other words, it should be limited relative to the life of these authors -- not even life long, let alone long after they're deceased.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by PeterisP on Thursday September 20, 2018 @02:51AM (#18030283)
As the constitution clause states, it's not the goal to have these exclusive rights; these exclusive rights are the means(motivation) by which to facilitate the creation and publication of such works.
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by TangoTrotFox on Thursday September 20, 2018 @03:26AM (#18030411)
You're absolutely right, but what you're saying suggests an even more limited ability of congress. The whole point of the United State's political design was to strictly limit the ability of congress except to what was allowed. For instance the right to free speech does not grant citizens the right to free speech -- that is already inherent. It prohibits the government from being able to take that inherent right away.

The constitution is not a guideline to unlimited powers, but constraints to limited powers. If congress is passing various copyright laws for reasons other than to "promote the progress of science and useful arts" then it would be unconstitutional. In other words passing laws to enhance profits rather than to ensure creator motivation would be unconstitutional, yet that's unambiguously the motivation for nearly all modern copyright law. Nobody is deterred from creating a work because they would only own the rights to it for e.g. 30 years, let alone 110 years.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by telchar on Thursday September 20, 2018 @09:51AM (#18032416)
That's a good point, although unfortunately I could see them getting away with extra power due to the interstate commerce clause that they use to justify so much else.
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by craftyguy on Thursday September 20, 2018 @11:47AM (#18033324)
> Out of curiosity, how many authors and inventors do you think live 110 years after their writing or discovery?

Well now that we've all agreed(lol) that corporations are now citizens, I'd argue that some do indeed 'live' long after the normal squishy citizen(s) that originally invented/created the thing have died (e.g. IBM).

(Note: I agree with your point, just playing devil's advocate)

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by TheCoelacanth on Thursday September 20, 2018 @05:39PM (#18035684)
> So the goal is to enable authors and inventors to have exclusive rights to their respective writings and discoveries

No, that is the means of accomplishing the goal. The goal is "to promote the progress of science and useful arts".

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by mtgx on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:03PM (#18029204)
> it's to allow the creator to extract all the possible value from their work

That may be why governments of the world keep passing copyright laws now and how they view copyright.

But copyright was established as a "balance" between making it profitable for the author to create the work (read: not to extract billions of dollars out of a work) in order to benefit the public. The primary goal has always been to benefit the public, not the author.

Also, one of the reasons why copyright should be finite and not have too long of a term is because no author has ever created anything - anything at all - from scratch. They themselves have built upon the work of others. This is why copyright is meant to be a system where one creates something upon something else, and then someone new can create something new upon that previous work, and so on.

Copyright was meant to be a kickstarting mechanism for authors, not a rent-seeking one, which is how it's used today.

If you still don't see this what I'm trying to say from my comment, I highly suggest you watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPERZDfyWc

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by int_19h on Thursday September 20, 2018 @12:00AM (#18029674)
That's fine, but we should then tax it same as all other property that is a significant investment - have the tax assessor evaluate the market value, and tax based on that.

Then we'll see how much Mickey Mouse copyrights etc are really worth to Disney.

Oh, and capping it on the bottom end - even symbolically, to something like a dollar a year, just so that there's the hassle of having to pay it - would also solve the abandonware problem.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by onetimemanytime on Thursday September 20, 2018 @01:15AM (#18029950)
Don't know about Mickey or how corps are taxed on their assets but I assume they are taxed on what they gain from their assets. So if Disney makes $2 Billion a year from Mickey they are taxed on that.

Also, when Eminem dies, IRS will value his estate (mainly image rights, songs and copyrights) and send a bill for close to half of the value.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by int_19h on Thursday September 20, 2018 @04:14AM (#18030593)
A person who owns a house and rents it out is taxed both on rental income, and on the value of the house itself.

They say that copyrights are "intellectual property". Let's treat them as such in other respects, not just when it comes to protecting property rights.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by ddingus on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:23PM (#18029295)
Current authors oulling the ladder up behind them.

The Brothers Grimm works helped Disney, who refuses to allow another Disney in like kind.

FREE THE MOUSE

I had that as a bumper sticker for over a decade. Lots of people asked! Was the best sticker ever. I told the Disney story many, many times.

Interestingly, most people were engaged, asked questions, mostly understood.

"So, that is why we get Terminator 2, 3, 4, 13...?"

What makes sense?

Balance of benefit of author and the public.

Authors need material to work from. Without that, everything will need a clearance of some sort. It is extremely difficult to make entirely new works and have them be compelling enough to reach greater relevance. No public works = tepid new works.

The public wants and benefits from a robust, rich culture. Everything owned = stale, managed culture formed in boardrooms.

Authors need to eat and benefit from their works. These benefits can and should be substantial, depending. No copyright term = dubious value in creative works = starving authors.

0 years breaks creation. Infinity years breaks culture, dilutes overall value to everyone.

100?

It is better than infinity, but where is the sweet spot?

The Brothers Grimm worked under 24 year terms. Disney used those works, once public, only to object and deny others what they got to build from.

And here we are today.

I personally think 40 is pretty great. Others want 0, others want hundreds of years.

I also believe overly long terms will result in counter, protest culture. Won't be easy to monetize, will ignore DRM, law, and will exist to deny the established scheme, because fuck them and their greed. Or something along those lines.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by oldandtired on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @11:31PM (#18029560)
If I have got the facts correct, most authors derive any income from their works in the first 3.5 years. Organisations like Disney et al are not authors but are gatekeepers and hence any benefit that they derive from copyright should be eliminated.

Hence, copyright should be a maximum of 7 years, consisting of 3.5 years initial and a explicitly asked for 3.5 years extension. Go back to the officially request copyright and if not done it is automatically public domain.

This would be the most beneficial to authors and the public as we really need to discount any benefit to the gatekeepers.

There are jurisdictions where an author cannot legally commit his/her work into the public domain as the law forces protections they do not want on to them.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by ddingus on Thursday September 20, 2018 @02:41AM (#18030255)
I am wide open on a reasonable term debate.

It is way too much now. Culture suffers today, and the older I get the more I can see it.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by kibwen on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:59PM (#18029434)
Regarding "FREE THE MOUSE", Disney wouldn't even actually lose the rights to Mickey Mouse at all, right? I'm under the impression that Mickey Mouse is a trademark, and that the copyrighted work in question is the actual Steamboat Willie cartoon. So even if copyright was abolished entirely, Mickey would be just as safe as the Disney trademark itself. Am I wrong?
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by ddingus on Thursday September 20, 2018 @02:40AM (#18030246)
I do not think you are wrong.

But, some one could do a Felix the Cat, Betty Boop, Steamboat Willie mashup.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by MereInterest on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @08:21PM (#18028730)
> To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.

Promoting the arts definitely sounds like extracting maximum value.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by lsiebert on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:56PM (#18029190)
progress is promoted when people can use existing stuff. Just look at Pride and Prejudice and Zombies and other things remixing existing public domain stuff.
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by MereInterest on Saturday September 22, 2018 @02:02AM (#18044720)
Sorry, I forgot how poorly sarcasm translates over text. I completely agree, and think that the current copyright period is far too long, preventing expansion on existing works.
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by habitue on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @08:33PM (#18028787)
I think Spivak's comment was talking about the "de facto" purpose as born out by experience. I usually don't like being cynical, but it seems copyright legislation is one of those areas where it's hard to be overly pessimistic
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by pishpash on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:16PM (#18028985)
What is the argument then for setting any number other than 0 or infinity? What are 100, 110, or 140 supposed to represent?
Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by adventured on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @09:22PM (#18029023)
> What are 100, 110, or 140 supposed to represent?

A compromise between two or more people with the power to influence such things.

Re:Senate passes copyright bill to end 140-year protection f... by pishpash on Saturday September 22, 2018 @05:31PM (#18048119)
Wrong. Nobody who wants to influence the number down will have any political power in a society with private property rights. It will grow toward infinity on that ground alone.