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Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by therealmarv on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:36AM (#18013510)
Elon Musk and his companies are master in unveiling and announcing visions but not in delivering. I wonder if there is a special word for that in marketing... let's see if they will make it till 2023... wish them luck though.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by mjamesaustin on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:57AM (#18013606)
SpaceX is a cutting edge pioneer of the modern space race. Their Falcon 9 rocket represented more than 50% of all US rocket launches in 2017.

When they announced their vertical landing program, critics across the industry laughed at them. Only a couple years later, their landings are so routine they don't even warrant press anymore.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by sschueller on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:24AM (#18013724)
Vertical landing is a parlor trick that isn't that hard and has been done before (McDonnell Douglas DC-X). It is a huge waste of fuel. You loose half of the payload capacity in order to land these things. In the long run it is not economically sustainable.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by adrianN on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:31AM (#18013759)
If only Space X had asked the experts on the Internet before pouring so much money into building reusable rockets...
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by sjwright on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:43AM (#18013820)
Yes, what the DC-X did was a parlor trick.

Vertical landing a post-orbit rocket onto a floating barge is not a parlor trick. The DC-X never did that. And vertical landing for real commercial orbital flights—then reusing those rockets for more real commercial orbital flights—is orders of magnitude more impressive again.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by sjwright on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:43AM (#18013822)
It might be "a huge waste of fuel" but the alternative is a huge waste of rocket. And the rocket is far more valuable than the fuel.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by wongarsu on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:43AM (#18013823)
Fuel cost is less than half a percent of launch cost. Wasting fuel isn't really a problem.

If you want to land you need a bigger rocket for the same payload. But with how expensive rockets are, building them bigger and reusing them seems cheaper than letting them burn up. (And after a splashdown in saltwater refurbishment is way too expensive, so parachutes don't work well for reusability)

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by Jonnax on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:27AM (#18013738)
So how else do you propose to have a reusable rocket? Smashing it into the ground or sea doesn't quite work.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by sschueller on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:30AM (#18013757)
Add parachutes and dump them in the sea.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by olex on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:37AM (#18013789)
That actually adds more mass than the extra fuel required for propulsive landing. And significant refurbishment of engines is needed after they've contacted salt water.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by dexen on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:13AM (#18013938)
We were using parachutes for the Space Shuttle SRBs, but there are certain important distinctions - the SRBs were, to a first approximation, "big dumb pipes", and had much less of a problem with saltwater damage due to water landing needed to cushion the impact. There were 3 parachutes, for a total of 3x 990kg [1] for the SRB's empty mass of 91'000kg. While Falcon Heavy's first stage is lighter (25'600 kg empty, each [2]), you would need disproportionately larger parachute size to achieve soft landing on the ground as opposed to SRB's water landing, to avoid salt water damage. And to possibly handle passenger flights.

Off of the top of my head, with parachute landing you add mass because both:

- the large parachutes are quite heavy themselves as above (add some overhead for covers and support installation; I can't find any numbers)

- needs increased structural integrity to handle the tug during deployment and the much faster touch-down on landing; with propulsive landing you can essentially touchdown at 0/0/0 vertical/horizontal/angular velocities, as soon as you nail down the math of flight characteristics and engine control

- possibly some sort of reaction control, to achieve proper deployment attitude

- probably a smaller drogue chute(s) to handle supersonic flight, with all the complexity it adds

Moreover, using chutes:

- completely prevents RTL flights

- complicates abort modes; you'd need to dump fuel and oxidizer quick (without mixing and igniting, good luck) to be able to rely on the chutes alone.

However I guess the overriding concern for Musk was quick turn-around. With a parachute landing you have less control over the touchdown point [3]; the logistics of recovery, refurbishment and relaunch become much more involved, possibly spanning an ocean [4]. And with longer turn-around you need more flight hardware, and more ground support, to handle given amount of orbital or surface-to-surface traffic. Call it reducing the capex by going for somewhat costlier option that ensures much higher flight hardware utilization.

Lastly, using parachutes would create an image of low reliability; it's not something we would consider as to be routinely performed by commercial passenger flights. You don't want to ship passengers to "somewhere near your destination"; you want to deliver them to the airport, right next to the jet bridge (call it rocket bridge?) and promptly usher them to the passenger terminal.

Yes, yes, the routine BFR passenger travel is coming.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Solid_Rocket_Boo...

[2] http://www.spaceflight101.net/falcon-9-v11.html

[3] Gemini-style Rogalo wing would help, if it could be scaled. See https://i.pinimg.com/564x/b0/84/87/b08487e18f16402e4867981ff... and https://vintagespace.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/rogallo-win... Not as preposterous as it may seem, given that Buran's side-boosters were to glide to landing on deployable wings; see http://www.buran.ru/images/jpg/gk175-5.jpg

[4] you could bulk up the 1st stage enough to let it coast suborbitally all the way around globe to RTL, but that's another matter - and again uses up valuable fuel, and you run up against the rocket equation pretty quickly.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by adrianN on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:41AM (#18013810)
Parachutes don't work very well on Mars. Salt water kills delicate machines. Parachutes need very sturdy (and heavy) rockets.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by gliptic on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:26AM (#18013990)
If you knew history, you'd know this has been tried before. The shuttle boosters did this; they barely saved any money after refurbishing.

SpaceX tried it too, but had significant problems even re-entering without the rocket ripping apart, not even getting to the problems of recovering and refurbishing salt-water damaged hardware.

This kind of attitude might have made more sense before SpaceX had demonstrated it was possible. After showing how the technology can be further refined for full and rapid reuse, and landing on Mars, it just reads as ignorant or intentionally misleading.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by C14L on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:39AM (#18013806)
1. No sea on Mars.

2. Turnover of 24 hours would become impossible.

3. Structural stress so 10 re-flights would become unlikely.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by coralreef on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:02AM (#18013625)
60 out of 62 successful launches in ~8 years, of rockets that navigate themselves to land on floating barges.

Yeah what are they doing for space exploration anyway?

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by _ph_ on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:51AM (#18013574)
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that SpaceX is regularly delivering and returning cargo to and from the ISS and is the major launch provider for commercial sattelites. Also, the F9Heavy had its maiden flight this year.

Tesla is not only selling the Model S and X for many years, and has with the Model 3 in the meantime the best-selling electrical car in the US.

So how are they not delivering?

As rocket science is.. rocket science, I do expect delays on the schedule. Especially safety concerns can easily make a development schedule slip. Yet, the SpaceX schedule slips seem to be small compared to other space ventures. The production of the first BFS prototype is under way, we are going to see the first test hops next year.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by robryan on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:53AM (#18013581)
It is probably fair to say that their promises are massive, making their under delivery still impressive.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by inawarminister on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:12AM (#18013677)
Promise to the stars, delivery to the moon? ... This idiom is better in my native language.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by sjwright on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:02AM (#18013897)
It's still pretty good in English.

(If you wanted something that was a bit more polished, you could say "Promise the stars, deliver the moon." or as a complete sentence, "They promised the stars, then delivered the moon.")

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by lozaning on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:06AM (#18013646)
They're not delivering on timelines.

-Signed someone with a day one Model 3 reservation still waiting for the 35K version.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by DEADBEEFC0FFEE on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:17AM (#18013699)
Rocket?
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by lozaning on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:07AM (#18013912)
The parent parent comment to mine is not limited to SpaceX in scope, "Elon Musk and his companies", nor is the parent comment.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by martijn_himself on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:06AM (#18013647)
SpaceX has delivered reusable rockets, which is one of the holy grails of space travel.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by aloisdg on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:50AM (#18013566)
> In the computer industry, vaporware (alt. vapourware) is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled. Use of the word has broadened to include products such as automobiles

wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by brennebeck on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:10AM (#18013927)
I replied below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18013579

And the OP replied to clarify, so I think vaporware is an unfair characterization. But I think that regardless, to be clear.

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by JoachimS on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:51AM (#18013572)
What isn't SpaceX delivering?
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by wongarsu on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:54AM (#18013865)
They have been developing the BFR for more than two years and won't launch one in the next two years /s

Maybe people have wrong expectations from working in software. SLS has a longer development time with a more tried-and-true design, and yet their deadlines slip as bad as those of SpaceX

Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by xrayzerone on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:02AM (#18013624)
Yeah - like not delivering Falcon, or vertical landing, or first stage reuse, or Falcon Heavy. /s
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by aargh_aargh on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:48AM (#18013556)
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by brennebeck on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:52AM (#18013579)
This doesn’t feel like what the OP is really trying to convey. At least not with the strict definition provided at the link. My interpretation of OP is something akin to “selling the sizzle”, I.e. being able to get any project bought into, unveiled, etc. with little/nothing, but it’s not quite at the level of vapor ware. Just my take.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by therealmarv on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:59AM (#18013616)
you got me! Thanks... exactly my thoughts.
Re:Elon Musk unveils first tourist for SpaceX 'Moon loop' by chrisper on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:48AM (#18013557)
>I wonder if there is a special word for that in marketing

Snakeoil?