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Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by rootbear on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:32PM (#18009188)
I'm not in favor of permanently being on Summer time, which is one of the options. Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see us completely lose the association of "Noon" with the Sun being at it's highest point in the sky. Yeah, I know. Hopeless romantic...

But I'd love to see the end of Daylight Saving Time. I hate the biannual screwing of my body clock.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by woodson on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:46PM (#18009323)
Ponferrada, Spain (42°33′N) has the same time as Skopje, Republic of Macedonia (42°0′N) (both are on CEST); however, in Ponferrada the sun passes through the meridian at 2:20pm today while in Skopje it does at 12:28pm.

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/spain/ponferrada

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/republic-of-macedonia/...

With this new regulation, Spain can adopt a time zone that makes more sense for them while not having to change clocks twice a year.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by briandear on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:01PM (#18009467)
They could have adopted the same time anyway. This regulation has no bearing on Spain choosing to be in CET when they should be on British time.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by bhaak on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:38PM (#18009243)
I hate to break this to you but at least in continental Europe, you don't find a big area where the sun is at its highest point in the sky.

The CET timezone has that property for the town of Goerlitz or, to a slightly less extend, Vienna. That means almost all of Germany, France, and Spain doesn't already have that property.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by zokier on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:09PM (#18009544)
Looking at this map[1], it doesn't seem that bad. I mean sure, France, Spain and Benelux could move to +0, but other than that the time zones seem to match reasonably well to solar time all things considered. For example both Berlin and Rome seem to be pretty well matched. Notably it would seem like using summer time would make everything worse, shifting the time zones in wrong direction.

[1] http://blog.poormansmath.net/images/SolarTimeVsStandardTimeV...

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by pmontra on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:45PM (#18010392)
Summer time is a better match for Italian habits. Business hours are 9 to 18, lunch break at 13. The South of the country has meals at least an hour later than the North. I hope we move to UTC+2.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by skywhopper on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:06PM (#18009518)
I have no particular attachment to noon meaning "highest point of the sun in the sky". Though I admit I am totally unaware of what time that happens where I live.

That said, it would only be a very few people who experience this, even on the "correct" time. Time zones are what disconnected time from the sun, not daylight savings.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by codethief on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:41PM (#18009268)
> Humans are already too disconnected from the physical world, I'd hate to see us completely lose the association of "Noon" with the Sun being at it's highest point in the sky.

This has never really been the case to begin as a wide (geographical) range of countries is part of the same time zone, meaning for instance that noon in Spain is not really noon.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by spullara on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:36PM (#18009229)
Summer time only for me. I have no interest in it getting dark near 5pm. (SF Bay Area)
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by lr on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:44PM (#18009303)
I am in NYC, which is pretty far east in the timezone (although not as east as others), and I still vote for DST being the permanent time.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by ghaff on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:54PM (#18009401)
Boston is quite a bit further east (and north). Personally, I'd go for year-round DST (or Atlantic Time which would effectively be the same thing).

You'll never resolve individual preferences though. Some won't want sun at 4AM in the summer; others won't want dark at 4PM in the winter [ADDED: or kids waiting around for school buses in pitch dark]. Get far enough north (and much of Europe is much further north) and there isn't enough light to go around at some times of the year.

I used to care more. Now my schedule is mostly flexible enough that I can largely choose when in the day I want it to be light.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by bostonpete on Monday September 17, 2018 @08:34PM (#18011387)
Permanent DST improves both of your examples (sun rising too early in the summer and setting too early in the winter).

The argument against permanent DST in Boston is how dark it would be when kids go to school.

Of course the counterarguments are "Alaskans do it" and "you can just adjust school schedules (and the work schedules of all the affected parents...)". In theory, those are both options, but are less desirable for many than the status quo

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by 3chelon on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:54PM (#18009395)
Or in the UK where it's dark by 4pm in mid-winter. Give me back my daylight
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by nicky0 on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:23PM (#18010208)
But if it shifts forward it's be dark in the morning till 9.30am.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by Hunisgung on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:41PM (#18009271)
In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon (and of course do stuff after work but not before). If we stay on winter time, I can say goodbye to sunlight for most of the year.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by EpicEng on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:03PM (#18009489)
>In France, the norm is to start work three/four hours before noon and finish six/seven hours after noon

You work 9-11 hour days? Doesn't france have a legally defined 35 hour work week and other, fairly stringent laws re max hours / day?

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by Hunisgung on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:32PM (#18010283)
The 35 hour work week is mostly implemented by getting additional vacation (on top of the base 25 days off) and (at least for engineers) some contractually agreed overtime (that is already included in the yearly salary you negociate).

For example, I have a legal 35 hour per week contract with 38h30 of work per week, the difference being compensated by about 15 additional days off and the rest paid in overtime.

Where I work (large private company) working from 9 to 18/19 with a good hour of lunch break is quite standard (with administrative people tending to work more form 8 to 17).

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by user5994461 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:07PM (#18009520)
It's 35 hours excluding a 2 hours lunch break, for example 9-12 14-18.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by tonfa on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:40PM (#18010349)
Most qualified jobs have a 39h/week contract (with extra vacation day to compensate), and among those people many seem to do much more with no extra pay (without realizing they actually get a pretty shitty pay for the amount of time they stay at work).
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by LukaD on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:52PM (#18009375)
I think this is a non issue. I’m just happy that I will be able enjoy more time after work while it’s not dark yet.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by briandear on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:02PM (#18009475)
I wonder why people couldn’t just start work earlier. The day is the same length.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by pmontra on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:50PM (#18010432)
It's not only work. It's schools, theaters, sport events, tv, dinner time. We must move everything and all the ingrained habits. It's not logic but moving the clock is easier.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by rootbear on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:11PM (#18009573)
Yes, exactly! If you want more daylight time after work, just start work earlier! I know not everyone has that luxury. But permanent Daylight Saving Time also makes it darker in the mornings, when kids are going off to school and that isn't necessarily desirable. I think it makes sense to be more flexible about when we schedule things and not further distort the historic understanding of the relationship of the clock to the sky. And yes, I understand that there are many places where this relationship is tenuous, at best.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by watwut on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:37PM (#18009844)
I would prefer dark while kids go to school in exchange for light after school so they are actually out side playing while there is sun.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by rootbear on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:29PM (#18010254)
Not an unreasonable attitude, I'll grant.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by LukaD on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:57PM (#18010491)
I already am starting work pretty early. I’m usually earlier in the office than most my colleagues. Starting work even earlier ist not really practical for me.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by unethical_ban on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:46PM (#18009915)
I like Summer time precisely so people can go outside and enjoy the physical world more. It's miserable to work until 5:30pm and have to turn your headlights on to go home.
Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by reaperducer on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:16PM (#18009618)
I'm with you. We should be more in tune with the world and natural measurements rather than less.

But the EU also thinks that the metric system is the bee's knees, even though it's just as arbitrary as the imperial system.

At least lengths in the imperial system are based on natural averages, and not some bureaucrat that decided to use a distance to Pairs. The equator, I could understand. But using Paris just proves that it's all about political control, and not actually improving a system of measurement.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by ljm on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:27PM (#18009727)
If we want natural measurements we should be basing it all off Fibonacci and the golden spiral, I guess?

The metric system is decimal and the orders of magnitude are intuitively consistent (1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000...). If the hang up is that they first chose the distance between Paris and the North Pole for the length of a meter, then that hang up is no more significant than the yard originally being defined as the length of a man's belt (something many people would now consider way too small).

Nobody in those times had the technology, insight, and awareness of the world that we currently do, so it was all defined in terms of what they knew. Nothing wrong with that; in the metric system they've all been adjusted to more scientific measurements (e.g. the precise weight of a precious metal, or some calculation on the speed of light)

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by Rinzler89 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:26PM (#18009717)
I hope you were sarcastic.

Metric system is worldwide not an EU thing and while it was initially just as arbitrary picked as the imperial one it scales linearly in base 10 so you can do conversions mentally without breaking a sweat.

I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head?

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by macintux on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:32PM (#18009779)
> I'm curious if you could just as easily convert inches-feet-yards off the top of your head?

For me that's a relatively easy case, because I regularly do that. When it comes to ounces/quarts/pints/gallons though, I'm completely baffled.

Give me microliters please: even if I have no idea how to conceive of that now, I know how to convert it trivially.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by thomasahle on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:31PM (#18009776)
I don't know what gripe you have with the metric system, but people don't care about what the base units are based on, but that the relationship between the units make sense.

Also, the original definition of the metre did use exactly the distance from the north pole to the equator. It's just that the earth is not completely round, so you need to define this length along a meridian. The Paris meridian may be as good as any.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by leni536 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:40PM (#18009869)
The metre is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in a vacuum in 1/299 792 458 second.

The metre was originally defined in 1793 as one ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the North Pole.

I don't know where you got the "distance to Paris" idea. From what?

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by reaperducer on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:16PM (#18010161)
Thank you for that. I stand corrected.

I once looked up (probably pre-Wikipedia) the standard for the length of a kilometer and saw that it was 1/1000th of the distance from Paris to the North Pole.

That's what I get for believing the internet.

I rescind my bureaucratic criticism of the metric system.

But I still like using easy-to-remember natural conventions like inch=thumb, foot=forearm, yard=arm's length.

Mile still seems arbitrary, though. I'l have to look into that one.

Re:EU to stop changing the clocks in 2019 by jameshart on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:23PM (#18010210)
Well originally, it was of course the distance from the equator to the North Pole through Paris - which is the distance from the north pole to Paris, plus the distance form the equator to Paris.