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Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Balgair on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:01PM (#18008274)
I'll echo the sentiment with anecdata: In my most recent job search, I applied to ~5k jobs before getting hired via networking. I know the online ad-boards work less well than spam email, but I mostly used them as lead generation (HN who's hiring too, but that was near useless). Still, it was ~5k jobs that I matched with and applied for over about 14 months. I interviewed at <10 companies, and got 3 offers (not too bad!). The most serious offer was for ~90k on the Peninsula, no health insurance. Due to personal medical issues, that was a hard pass (pills are ~7k/mo w/o insurance)

On the rare chance that I got a rejection from an actual person, I'd email them with a 'resume bounty' request (like a bug bounty); $15 PayPal to tell me where I am going wrong in my applications (basically, I'd buy your lunch). No one took the cash, as they all'd just email me back saying that I was perfect, just that they already hired, I lacked 5 years in skills $XXXX$, I wasn't local, I was overqualified, yadda yadda yadda.

I've really tried to get into the mind of these companies and HR departments, but I can find no logic there. I've taken people at the larger companies in my sector out to lunch, coffee, beers, etc to pick their brains. The only thing I can think of that I have a black mark in some database or another that a lot of people use (credit is near perfect, references are a-ok, career path is a bit of a mess but what Millennial's isn't? ).

I've no idea what is going on.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Kagerjay on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:43PM (#18009892)
$15 isn't a huge bounty for the risk of potential litigation/getting fired for breaking company policy for telling honest feedback. This is how I see it from HR's perspective. A prospective candidate may not take the feedback as constructive criticism, causing some backlash and issues to the recruiter.

Another reason you are not sent as a rejection letter, is because it looks bad on HR's end if you were rejected, only to get hired months later. It basically says to the candidate "Our first pick dipped out on us, we were desperate enough to go through the 2nd pool, called a bunch of people, you were our backup". HR doesn't care about you, just what works for their company.

Sending rejection letters takes effort and offers no short-term benefits from HR's standpoint. Also, it can get quite messy to manage emails, especially if HR is aggregating prospective candidates from different portals all to one email.(remoteok.io, indeed.com, glassdoor.com, careerbuilder, reactjsjobs.com, etc)

Email responses becomes difficult to manage since you get 100+ emails in your inbox daily, 95% of candidates being unqualified. HR might not be big enough to warrant a dedicated system or tooling for hiring. You can use builtin tools like indeed.com, but from my experience its slower than using email. If you want to get shit done really fast forwarding to an email is time-saving, simple, and cheap.

You can then take the best candidates there, put it in kanban / trello / notion task board, etc if its a multistage interview process.

Companies aren't going to care enough to blacklist you in some database unless you caused some serious offense to warrant this. I can only think of one company that might actually do this, and its Valve.

Also if you apply to the same company more than once, you might be dealing with the same recruiter. They might recognize your resume just from memory though

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Balgair on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:45PM (#18009913)
> Another reason you are not sent as a rejection letter, is because it looks bad on HR's end if you were rejected, only to get hired months later. It basically says to the candidate "Our first pick dipped out on us, we were desperate enough to go through the 2nd pool, called a bunch of people, you were our backup".

Good perspective, I had not thought of that. Thank you.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by megaman8 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:11PM (#18009565)
What's going on is that there's an oversupply of Skilled labor. They already found someone else. The greater the oversupply, the more qualified candidates they have to reject.

I know one person, she's a data analyst (2 years experience, +5 years of marketing experience) here in the bay area. hasn't been able to get a Data analyst job for 3 years now, even after applying thousands of jobs and interviewing dozens of times. Finally, she was forced to take an after school baby-sitting job for 17$/hour (bay area).

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by aeternus on Monday September 17, 2018 @05:47PM (#18010408)
There's definitely not an oversupply of skilled labor, there is just a ton of noise in the hiring process right now.

Our software engineering job posts on LinkedIn & Indeed generate hundreds of applicants per day, the vast majority of which can't code at all. Attempting to sift through them is just too costly so we mostly use alternate sources: tech recruiters, more selective job sites. The problem is those sources heavily filter themselves and don't always use the most fair criteria.

We used to have unique challenge problems online to offer a more level playing field, but solutions were constantly posted to github so even that became quite time-consuming to maintain.

We're still hiring at a decent rate, but do have more headcount than we can fill right now. There are definitely qualified candidates out there but attempting to filter them from the mass of applicants is difficult.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Balgair on Monday September 17, 2018 @06:09PM (#18010563)
As for the 'noise' factor, try red-teaming your hiring processes, though for your particular situation it may not be the best. For example: with the major job sites, make a fake profile that is a 100% match, apply for your jobs, see if the fake person gets through, at what rate, etc. Do it for 90%, 80%, 70% matches too (define the % match as you see fit).

Trying to 'hack/red-team' your own system may reveal weaknesses and flaws you weren't thinking of and help the hiring process. See what penetrates, what doesn't, chat about it over lunch, etc. And yes, it does seem like taking an adversarial approach towards your very own hiring processes is insane, but here we are.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by stevehawk on Monday September 17, 2018 @06:01PM (#18010516)
I'd love to know which are the more selective job sites. I'm having trouble finding work and i haven't figured out if it's due to a horrible resume (hired a tech recruiter to do it so I assume not) or if I'm horrible at interviews.

I'm convinced that interviewing for programming jobs and being able to code are two different skills. Making it worse for myself is that I come from the military and IC so i dont have any public blogs or Github activity so i can't pretend to be a "thought leader", which I'm also pretty sure is a bullshit term.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by aeternus on Monday September 17, 2018 @07:50PM (#18011139)
Hired.com, Triplebyte.

Working on a side project and creating a real Github commit stream is also useful.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by stevehawk on Monday September 17, 2018 @11:05PM (#18012161)
Eh. Triplebyte only recruits for jobs in like three cities.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by disgruntledphd2 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:28PM (#18009740)
Your friend needs to pretend to be a data scientist. That's what they call data analysis now. If she's any good, then she'll be a whole lot better than any recent PhD grad (if I wasn't 5k miles away, I'd interview her at least based on your description).
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by megaman8 on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:52PM (#18009966)
Well, she doesn't have a computer science degree. She's an MBA who's learned SQL, tableau, excel, etc (working at a large company 500+ people). She pulls out data with SQL queries and knows how to use excel inside and out. she's made it all the way to the final interview, but everytime they figure out she had a baby, they assume she's going to have a 2nd one.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by sn on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:57PM (#18019066)
I'd be happy to explore with your friend if I know of any consulting/contract opportunities for her and provide some guidance on resources for going forwards with that. She may get better traction that way; contractors are treated much differently from employees.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by astura on Monday September 17, 2018 @11:19PM (#18012216)
I strongly encourage her to contact the EEOC. https://www.eeoc.gov/employees/charge.cfm
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:59PM (#18010030)
Isn't that an open-and-shut discrimination case?
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by cannonedhamster on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:27PM (#18018816)
Unfortunately no. You can easily not hire someone for "fit" without describing why you didn't think that they fit. You can also say a million other legal reasons for not hiring. Unless they specifically say that you were not hired because you're a momma then you've got a long, long hill to climb.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Consultant32452 on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:43PM (#18009287)
I'll offer my anecdata as a counter-example. Within the past year I was offered a nice 6-figure salary at a prominent banking company after a single phone interview. I'm (just barely) a millennial also with no degree, no certifications, didn't even go to tech school.

I can't speak to your personal situation, but speaking generally I think too many tech people over-value their technical skills. If all a company needs is a warm body that can code or patch servers they will hire a better coder in India for half the price. The number one differentiator is communication and social skills. At my job there are 4 main groups I talk to: local coworkers, India coworkers, management, clients. Being a person who can talk to all 4 of those groups is valuable. Being a person who can churn out code is not particularly valuable.

Communication, of course, starts on the resume. If you're not even getting calls, I would suggest getting some help on your resume. Hire a professional if you need to.

If your job history is a mess take a few crappy consulting gigs and then a year from now you can say, "I've been successfully consulting for a while but now am looking for a place to settle in." That way you at least look consistent.

If interviewing is tough for you, then do it more. If you have stable job put your resume out there and accept at least 2-3 interviews every 6 months. Even/Especially if you are happy with your current job. Not needing the new job takes the pressure off. The practice will be good for you and you never know, you might find an amazing opportunity.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Balgair on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:44PM (#18009903)
My sector is biotech, so it quite a bit different than tech. Consulting really doesn't happen. Nonetheless, thank you for the tech advice.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by duxup on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:55PM (#18008880)
Yeah there's NO feedback. Even rejection emails were rare. All I got was "ghosting" from recruiters... even those I met in person.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Consultant32452 on Monday September 17, 2018 @03:46PM (#18009326)
If you met a recruiter in person and then they ghosted you, that means you failed the "sniff test." That's not literal, I'm not suggesting you literally smell, but it means you failed to present well socially. If recruiters place bad candidates they stop getting business and they go broke. Recruiters are totally technically illiterate, so they are all about that social "feel." Something you did put them off and made them not feel comfortable betting their income on you.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by akvadrako on Monday September 17, 2018 @04:37PM (#18009841)
No that isn't it - the recruiters don't care about you so why should they reply? It's just a waste of time. Their job is about treating people as things.

I've had several recruiters ghost me, then months later contact me with potential gigs.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by Consultant32452 on Monday September 17, 2018 @06:21PM (#18010630)
Yes, recruiters see you as a thing, a thing they have to try to sell. They have no clue how to determine your technical chops. So how do you think they determine whether you will be easy to sell or difficult to sell? Why do you think they have face to face meets?
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by akvadrako on Saturday September 22, 2018 @06:36AM (#18045418)
That doesn't matter if the other side of the equation doesn't work out. If they can't convince the client to do an interview they will usually ghost you, regardless of your smell.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by duxup on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @09:05AM (#18014898)
It's funny because most of them said the opposite socially, specifically saying how they thought I was quite personable compared to other candidates.

I think more likely it was experience as I was in the midst of changing careers. The unfortunate part is they could have seen that on my resume and from our phone calls (not that they pay much attention).

I actually suspect a lot of my meetings were a case where my preference level was low but they were meeting with me to sort of bank a contact they might use in the future.... but not likely now. I suspect this as after I got a job, several have suddenly followed up with me after ignoring me in the meantime....

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by NullPrefix on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:49AM (#18013561)
> recruiters ... I met in person.

That was your first mistake. Recruiters provide little to no value for potential hires.

Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by duxup on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @09:05AM (#18014902)
Refusing to meet them also would seem to close a door when you're looking for any option you can.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by toomuchtodo on Wednesday September 19, 2018 @10:06PM (#18029217)
My recruiter, who found me on LinkedIn, roughly doubled my compensation.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by NullPrefix on Thursday September 20, 2018 @03:00PM (#18034700)
That means you may have been able to triple it by going directly.
Re:America is pushing the labour market to its limits by toomuchtodo on Friday September 21, 2018 @11:29AM (#18040400)
I wouldn't have been able to even get in the door without the recruiter; that's simply how the org operates.