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Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by megous on Friday September 14, 2018 @10:13AM (#17987293)
Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak.

FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition.

Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians delaying OPCW FFM on basis of security in the area, while at the same time parading around some journalists in the same area.

And last, the US and friends bombing were during the night and in a different place. Certainly nothing that would prevent OPCW FFM from operating in the area.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by guilhas on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:16PM (#17988445)
I said theories. As in "Russia stands to gain from Skripal poisoning, only they had the method, it was a state operation, approved by Putin, during election campaign and FIFA2018" And "Assad gassing his people while wining the war". But you also have reports from UN/OPCW that the rebeles were the ones to chemical weapons, or that there were no chemical weapons used in Douma.

I don't see how FUD of Russia damages western intervention. Also the disaster of previous western interventions, and the current in Syria supporting the terrorists speaks for itself.

Russia vetoed a US UN resolution to determine responsibles without an FFM, just relying on the civil society and media reports. Other Russia delaying news were already almost 10 days in, including after US bombings. They say it was for security reasons, and there were shotings while the investigators were there. Also if there were journalists parading how could they interfere with the evidence?

They bombed in Douma area also. Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by megous on Friday September 14, 2018 @10:47PM (#17992690)
All you said was that chemical use theories are weak. Yet they are not weak. Chemical weapons are used in Syria almost since the beginning of the uprising. For example, OPCW determined Sarin was used several times in 2017. So chemical weapons are used in Syria. There are almost no reports of other parties than ISIS and Assad using chemical weapons. Quantity matters. It's like 1:100. I can think of one incident near Aleppo, that's always used in these conversations.

It's actually one of the ways Russian propaganda works. There's no proportionality involved. It's just Assad does this. Oh no, other people do it too, so... presumably it's ok? or it's messy, so presumably we should all give Putin free hand to do what he likes?

Yes, corrupt rebels are no better in principle than Assad, but amount of damage they did and can do is very limited, compared to actual damage done by the regime to people who protested against it. And it's not just rebel groups vs Assad, there's also much larger civil society, that just dislikes all corrupt leaders and wants to have a peaceful life for once. And these people have much better chance organizing against local warlords, if Assad would not constantly attack them.

> Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.

Perhaps, but it turned out to be right, according to preliminary report.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by antpls on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:17PM (#17988458)
I have been starting to read TASS news in parallel to Reuters' feed.

From only reading news, I don't know which side to trust anymore. Putin's gov denies almost all accusations (cyberattacks, chimical attacks, nerve agents, etc) from Western countries, and instead accuses the West govs of creating a "russo-phobia" amongst people opinion.

Example of news you can read on TASS, but not relayed by Reuters : http://tass.com/politics/1021365 http://tass.com/politics/1021274 http://tass.com/defense/1021107 http://tass.com/world/1021091

And it goes on and on...

If you only read TASS, you would quickly think Western govs are not much "cleaner" than Russia

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by dragonwriter on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:45PM (#17991243)
Reuters isn't a state-owned propaganda outlet; TASS has been since at least the early days of the Bolshevik regime (and maybe earlier; it was state-owned telegraph agency under the Tsarist regime, but I don't have any information of whether it acted as a state propaganda arm then; it's journalist came from a separate firm.)
Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by guilhas on Friday September 14, 2018 @08:25PM (#17992161)
That doesn't mean CIA/NSA doesn't influence it. You can clearly see the same narrative across all mainstream media. And commentators with different opinions being shutdown.
Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by dragonwriter on Friday September 14, 2018 @08:54PM (#17992281)
> That doesn't mean CIA/NSA doesn't influence it. You can clearly see the same narrative across all mainstream media.

A simple explanation for that is that facts exist and impact the coverage presented by media outlets that make some effort to do what their overt role is.

I mean, alternatively, you could suspect,as you imply, that all non-fringe media that aren't state run propaganda arms of US rivals are, in fact, US state propaganda outlets pushing CIA/NSA scripted narratives.

Well, except when Paul Manafort isn't planting propaganda for Russian client regimes in them, at any rate.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by guilhas on Saturday September 15, 2018 @07:58AM (#17993947)
I just agree we are better informed watching news from both countries when it involves them. Be it state owned or not.

"Hillary is going to win the election!" Was certainly propaganda.

I don't have any theory, but you can see they all somehow sing to the same tune, including UK and EU. They want to give their approved opinions instead of reporting reality. With the exception of the ocasional independent journalist.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by antpls on Saturday September 15, 2018 @02:23PM (#17995421)
> I just agree we are better informed watching news from both countries when it involves them. Be it state owned or not.

This.

I wasn't necessarily meaning that TASS or Reuters were scripted or censored by CIA/Kremlin. However we can pragmatically assert both agencies have biases (cultural, political, financial, etc).

For example, according to Russia, the British government released almost no data about the toxic nerve agent case, no specific proof was made public. Other governments (France, US) said they support the UK.

Now that did lead to more sanctions on Russia, and the expulsion of Russian diplomats, but from an external observer point of view, it isn't rigorous at all. IMHO, many more reports and documents should be made public, especially about the methods used to conclude that the Russian government is the source of the attack.

Would the general public arrive to the same conclusions than the governments?

I'm 27 years old, I didn't live during the ex-URSS or the Cold War. All I see is 2 camps accusing each other and escalating without serious proof, and people are supposed to say nothing about it? To me, the days when we systematically accused the Russian government of all the shady stuff are supposed to be gone, and we are supposed to use rigorous tribunal procedure before sanctioning an entity, especially if it means deteriorating international relations

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by krapp on Saturday September 15, 2018 @08:02AM (#17993959)
>"Hillary is going to win the election!" Was certainly propaganda.

An opinion that one of two candidates would win the election was "certainly propaganda?"

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by guilhas on Sunday September 16, 2018 @12:33PM (#17999722)
Ok. What I meat was: "All mainstream media claiming Hillary was certainly the election winner. And some pointing statistics like 95%." was propaganda.
Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by dragonwriter on Sunday September 16, 2018 @11:36PM (#18003011)
No, the predictors making that prediction weren't doing propaganda, and most mainstream outlets didn't make that (or any other prediction), though many reported the fact of the existence of one or more of the predictions that were made.

Those making the 95% prediction were using statistical models established for that purpose before the identity of the candidates or what those models would show were known. They quite arguably are bad models as they assumed state level deviations from polling results are independent where history suggests that, in fact, they are strongly correlated (a fact pointed out by Nate Silver prior to the election, in explaining why 538 had a much lower projection of Clinton's probability of victory.) But choosing a bad model isn't propaganda.

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by guilhas on Monday September 17, 2018 @02:33PM (#18008641)
Nice excuses. What I heard was the media, and the "experts", did a bad job.

A poll, your favorite. Let's hope they used a good model. https://news.gallup.com/poll/197090/majority-voters-think-me...

Re:Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber b... by megous on Saturday September 15, 2018 @12:05AM (#17992926)
Yeah, the difference is striking. I can understand why he'd like to believe that outsiders hate Russians rather than him, yet people often times say Putin or Kremlin, to differentiate between ordinary Russians and the actions of their government. Even more so, if they have experience living under an authoritarian regime.