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Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @04:17PM (#17929206)
A proposal for better security with domain names:

The domain name system has been around for decades and it's a clever and proven system. It can – and should be – taught in school and, arguably, knowledge of it is, while not difficult to obtain, essential in our times. Additional ambiguity in this is probably not what we want.

Arguably, the most sincere problems arise from mixed alphabets with Unicode domains and look-alike characters/glyphs. This could be addressed by a) going back to codepages (Unicode subranges) and defining a valid subset for each range, and b) enforcing a domain name (hostname and domain) to be in a single codepage. Clients should derive the codepage by the Unicode range and generate a codepage-identifier, which may be displayed as a badge, identifying the respective range. And, of course, any mixed domains should be regarded illegal and invalid. (We may even want to make this codepage-identifier a mandatory particle of any URI, preceding the hostname.)

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by UncleMeat on Thursday September 06, 2018 @05:47PM (#17929866)
> Arguably, the most sincere problems arise from mixed alphabets with Unicode domains and look-alike characters/glyphs.

No way. The most sincere problem is that hostnames do not enforce any binding to a real world identity that users can understand (nobody inspects certs) and that the most trustworthy component of a hostname is the second to the last section (right before ".com"). Humans tend to look at the front of the URL, making "www.bank.evil.com" a mind bogglingly effective phishing technique.

Homoglyphs are almost always a sign of bad behavior and can just be banned to a large degree. The fact that "foo.com" or "foo.evil.com" are not necessarily owned by company foo is much worse.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @05:59PM (#17930000)
Regarding the parsing of URLs, this is a common, but mostly counterintuitive argument: Take for example names in most western countries, addresses (street-zip-city-country), etc. Most of our most important identifiers work this way.

Regarding lacking binding of identity: On the other hand, this has been one of the most important features of the web, from the very beginning. Also, there is no way to setup a system, which will attribute to a single person in a readable and intuitive way. (E.g., names fail to do so.) Arguably, this should be left to (optional) extensions.

I'd argue, the knowledge required to parse a URI safely may be conveyed in couple of minutes. Why not enforce this knowledge? Why not have a URL-parsing note on the start screen of any browser? Why dumb down the system and introduce ambiguity – and by this even more insecurity – instead of educating users? URL-parsing is a vital skill, which can be acquired in less time than memorizing a basic table of partial addition results. Why do we still try to teach addition, if we can't teach URLs?

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by deanCommie on Saturday September 08, 2018 @04:16AM (#17940036)
Except this is already broken by multi-part TLDs.

foo.com is owned by "foo" foo.evil.com is owned by "evil" foo.co.uk is NOT owned by "co"

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by lalaithion on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:04PM (#17930768)
The best security change we could make, imo, is rewriting domains so that they look like com.evil.bank.www/now/urls/go/from/most/specific/to/least
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by travem on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:25PM (#17930902)
You're in good company. Tim Berners-Less said something similar when reflecting on what he would do differently if given the chance:

> Looking back on 15 years or so of development of the Web is there anything you would do differently given the chance? > "I would have skipped on the double slash - there’s no need for it. Also I would have put the domain name in the reverse order - in order of size so, for example, the BCS address would read: http:/uk.org.bcs/members. The last two terms of this example could both be servers if necessary."

From http://www.impactlab.net/2006/03/25/interview-with-tim-berne...

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by nathan_long on Monday September 10, 2018 @10:28AM (#17952035)
Yes. Think how you have to read "mobile.tasty.noodles.com/italian/fettuccine" to determine where it goes.

First start at the slash and work your way left: "com -> noodles -> tasty -> mobile" - then jump back to the slash and work your way right: "italian -> fettuccine".

This is counterintuitive and I doubt most users understand it. "com.noodles.tasty.mobile/italian/fettuccine" makes more sense to me.

Also, I think TLDs like "com" and "edu" and now "io" and "cool", etc, are misguided. I wish we had "country.language" as the only TLDs. For instance, "us.en.apple.www/mac". I see several advantages.

One, if "us.en.apple" and "uk.en.apple" were different entities, it would make legal sense, whereas "apple.com" and "apple.cool" being different entities makes no sense. Two, a use would likely notice if they ventured outside their usual TLD(s), and be less surprised by the different entity. Three, these TLDs could have rules about allowed characters; eg, only ASCII in "us.en". This would make homoglpyh attacks much more difficult.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:45PM (#17931031)
I'm not so convinced. There would be still "uk.co.bbc" and "com.bbc" pointing to the same body behind it and any kind of confusion arising from this, like, "is 'ug.co.bbc' the same?" The most important part is teaching users that the identity isn't just "bbc" with some extra decoration. Also, we have the reverse example in software packaging (com/example/disruptiveLibrary) and it isn't fool-proof either (especially, if you only know of "disruptiveLibrary" and not about its origin).
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by JdeBP on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:46AM (#17932996)
Years ago, before the WWW, some parts of the world indeed ordered them that way.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET_NRS

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by toast0 on Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:04PM (#17931574)
I don't see how you could enforce a hostname binding to some real world identity. Hostnames really need to have a non-ambiguous mapping from a name to a computer (more or less), but real world entities don't have that, without using really cumbersome indentifiers. Many natural persons share a name, so how do we decide who gets a hostname based on that; the same is true of corporate persons -- there are many that share names. Even if there was a way to disambiguate these things, it seems unlikely that the entity in charge of this would also want to rub a public registry -- so how do you make that work.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by slavik81 on Friday September 07, 2018 @02:43AM (#17932321)
Absolutely. People don't have a single coherent model of identity in the real world. It's hard to glue certs to a pile of sand. Did I buy lunch from "Tim Horton's", from "The TDL Group Corp." or from some random company with an address for a name? The answer is yes to all three, despite only buying one lunch.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @06:24PM (#17930171)
On a higher level, all those considerations are about a single question: Is the Web about communication (then it's probably OK as it is), or about a viable business platform with an entry-level as low as it can be?

Who's without interest may throw the first stone, er, browser extension.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by rolandog on Friday September 07, 2018 @10:37AM (#17934557)
Both techniques are deceptively effective; I know the following might be only anecdotally relevant, but it's the most recent case of a successful phishing attack I know of:

Recently a friend of mine didn't see the lower dot on the 'e' in a URL [0], and promptly ended up inadvertently broadcasting messages to everyone on her WhatsApp contacts list.

[0] www [dot] hẹb [dot] com/coupon/

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by pvorb on Thursday September 06, 2018 @07:35PM (#17930594)
How about displaying an identicon, that is rendered from the domain, in the address bar? People might soon learn what the icons of their important sites look like and will easily detect if somebody is trying to phish their bank account.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by waterhouse on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:01PM (#17930753)
The space of easily visually distinguishable images has a certain size. Let's assume there's a deterministic, pseudorandom mapping from domains to images. For a given domain, how many plausible impostor domains are there? What's the chance that there's at least one impostor domain that happens to get the same image?

If you have 1000 distinct images, but a given domain has 5 letters that could each be replaced with any of 3 visually identical Unicode characters, then, well, the chances are very high that there exists a plausible impostor domain with the same image. I don't think this is a very workable approach.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by pvorb on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:18PM (#17930847)
Yes, I admit it's hard to get something like this secure. It's in the same problem space like hash functions and might require some research.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by DCoder on Friday September 07, 2018 @12:47AM (#17931940)
FWIW, OpenSSH already does this and calls it "randomart".
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by pvorb on Friday September 07, 2018 @01:46AM (#17932133)
Right, didn't think of this.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @07:53PM (#17930701)
We might even call it "favicon", for the fun of it… :-)
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by kba on Thursday September 06, 2018 @07:59PM (#17930740)
Any fake-Facebook website can copy Facebook's favicon, so that wouldn't add any security at all.

An identicon is a hash value represented as an icon. "facebook.com", for instance, may hash to a red image with a yellow line through it. While you wouldn't remember the icon initially, over time you would – or at least your subconsious would. If you ever visisted a fake-Facebook, you'd immediately notice that something was wrong if the icon suddenly was green with a blue dot in it, for instance.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by mrec on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:00PM (#17930748)
Not sure if serious, but no. Anyone can copy a favicon; the point of an identicon is that it's generated from the domain name, so subverting it would require an attacker to find a hash collision with a visually similar domain.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:30PM (#17930936)
Sorry, I mistook "that is rendered from the domain" for "rendered from a resource from the domain".

However, teach users to read domain names! If users do not grasp the general concept, e.g., if the supposed identity is just "example" (possibly with some decoration considered insignificant) and not "example.com", how are they supposed to survive? Domains have been around for more than a quarter of a century, the Internet is actually part of our lives… There is no excuse, and there is no sense in pretending that there was no harm in not understanding the basics. That said, there are real ambiguities that have to be addressed.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by pvorb on Thursday September 06, 2018 @08:39PM (#17930991)
Yes, it would be nice if every child would learn these basics in school.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by friendzis on Friday September 07, 2018 @07:17AM (#17933388)
Which would be called computer literacy. I find it both awesome and terrifying that people can successfully do jobs that require working on a computer and still be computer illiterates. Awesome in a sense that it illustrates how good computer interfaces actually are and terrifying in a sense that in any profession with heavy machinery a person with a solution "adjust switches and dials until something happens" would be told to immediately vacate the place for safety reasons.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by eecc on Friday September 07, 2018 @03:55AM (#17932580)
Yes, learning to be good consumers is way more important than basic skills such as maths, reading, writing and general critical thinking /s
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by krotton on Friday September 07, 2018 @05:53PM (#17937944)
We do teach kids not to talk to strangers in the street and consider it quite important, I think. What's so much different about teaching them how not to get robbed on-line? It's not about being a good consumer, but about minding your own feet.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by wstuartcl on Friday September 07, 2018 @01:14PM (#17935945)
Yeah, cause moving from a text domain with no collision possible to some sort of collision prone visual system to ensure are able to understand the domain they are viewing seems like a great idea.

FFS, if users cant see that somedomainname.com is different than somedomanname.com how does a randomized image of the domain name based on a hash solve this.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by mrec on Friday September 07, 2018 @02:32PM (#17936578)
I'm not saying it's a good idea. I don't think it is. But it's not just a favicon.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by michaelmrose on Friday September 07, 2018 @03:15AM (#17932428)
How is the identicon designed such that its difficult to spoof?

I know of at least one site which users a user selected image in the login screen to thwart phishing attempts. Because its user selected its memorable, I think more so than a password for example. It would be hard for a scammer to spoof as well because they don't know the image the user selected when they created the account.

Unfortunately this would probably be less notable and thus memorable if everyone did it.

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by pvorb on Sunday September 09, 2018 @04:07PM (#17947493)
I dedicated a blog post to this idea: https://vorba.ch/2018/url-security-identicons.html

Here is the discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17947467

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by wongarsu on Thursday September 06, 2018 @05:27PM (#17929708)
>enforcing a domain name (hostname and domain) to be in a single codepage

this is essentially what is already implemented in most browsers. You can't mix characters from different scripts in a domain name, except for special cases (e.g. japanese and latin are frequently used together and have little potential for confusion)

Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by masswerk on Thursday September 06, 2018 @05:29PM (#17929725)
However, these are just "anti-phishing" heuristics. We really should apply a rule on this.
Re:Chrome 69: “www.” subdomain missing from URL by Biqh1 on Friday September 07, 2018 @02:22AM (#17932260)
do you have any examples of school class materials which teach stuff like this? I'd be really interested to read through them.