News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by ansible on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:30PM (#17899654)
Yeah.

As I learned more about science and actual spacecraft, I got increasingly frustrated with science fiction and anything related to spacecraft. But there is a spectrum of realism.

For example, with Babylon 5, the fighters had inertia, and would often face in the direction of the enemy while travelling in another direction. In contrast, Star Wars spacecraft fly around as if they were aircraft in an atmosphere, which isn't surprising given that older war movies were an inspiration for its battle scenes.

Later, I was reading about molecular nanotechnology, and then considered the idea that un-augmented meatbags like us travelling among the stars is absurd. From an energy expenditure perspective and practically perspective. Basically, if we have the technology to travel to the stars, we won't be humans anymore.

And these days, I just look for shows that feature "good writing" in the sense of dialog and overall plot.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by 3rdAccount on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:12PM (#17899811)
Glad you mentioned Babylon 5. The Earthforce Starfury light fighters are what you're talking about. Basically the human stands up while in a space-suit in a tiny cockpit with two plasma cannons underneath. Four crossed arms stick out with an engine on each arm (not unlike an X-wing). In a dog fight you could actually see the pilots kill the engines on one 1/2 the ship to spin around and stuff. Really cool cgi for the mid 90's.

The best part of Babylon 5 (besides the best writing in all of SciFi) was how asymmetric the races could be (makes perfect sense). Earth is pretty powerful among the younger races, but we're nothing compared to the mid-level Centauri Republic & Minbari Federation. We still have to spin mass around our ships for gravity while they've figured out a way around it. So you see the Minbari ships being beautifully designed on the outside and inside (proper living spaces), while Earth ships are almost like old Navy battleships but in space where everything is cramped and people have to where seatbelts in combat as it is so likely for the gravity to be unstable. The ancient races don't even really need to open jumpgates to go into hyperspace, they just phase and have 100% sentient organic ships.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by arbie on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:52PM (#17899976)
> Babylon 5 [...] the best writing in all of SciFi

This is where you lost me.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by fsloth on Monday September 03, 2018 @12:44AM (#17900379)
Babylon 5 was a whole new ballpark when it came out in the early 90's. Good television is now everywhere, but when B5 came out, it was completely unconventional to have a continuous plot over five seasons. At the time "one plot per episode" was the accepted standard, and while the dramatic arcs of for example Star Trek, the Next Generation (ST:TNG) eventually became longer as the script writers got more confident, the arcs of B5 were supposed to last through the seasons from the beginning.

The writing is occassionally weak, and thus it pales in comparison to more younger fantasy productions like Battlestar Galactica reboot, or Game of Thrones. But at it's time it was groundbreaking.

The moments of epic were really good since they were preplanned and they could be foreshadowed much in advance. Hence moments like (spoiler alert...)

... Earth falling into totalitarian state, bombing of one of the alien homeworld, the Shadows overwhelming Centauri prime, etc, were nearly unheard of narrative high points due to the buildup to them over the series.

There were lot of not-so-high quality filler episodes and so on, which make the series more of a cult classic rather than ... an obvious classic.

And yes, I categorized space opera as fantasy :)

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by projektir on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:54AM (#17901125)
I can't say I agree with the characterization of B5 as "paling in comparison" vs BSG at all. I've went out to watch B5 rather late, after I've already seen all of these other allegedly superior shows, and I still found it to be one of the strongest if not the strongest sci-fi offerings.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by TeMPOraL on Monday September 03, 2018 @04:05AM (#17901174)
Seconding. BSG (the 2000s one) was top #1 of sci-fi series for me, but after watching B5 recently, I believe the latter has better writing overall. I really wish someone would do a remaster of that series.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by ethbro on Monday September 03, 2018 @02:18AM (#17900722)
As someone rewatching it now, I'm surprised by how few pure filler episodes there are.

At minimum, every episode at least advances a core character. And usually has one Easter egg related to the overall plot.

As you said, compared to TNG, early DS9, or X-Files, this was groundbreaking stuff on broadcast TV.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by 3rdAccount on Monday September 03, 2018 @08:33AM (#17902220)
As fsloth says below, JMS knew every plot point from day 1 and had trap doors for every character. If an actor's contract fell through after 2 seasons, they didn't have some emergency, they enacted the back up plan (Talia being replaced with Lyta). The shows lead had mental health issues and was also replaced after season 1 with some later cameos. It seemed like it was obviously meant that way. Even the super fans didn't know until recently when the actor died.

Yes B5 had some painful filler episodes and the acting was both amazing (G'Kar, Londo, Delenn) and at times bad, but overall the show is the one show that has stayed with me since Kindergarten. Just like TNG episodes (the drumhead and measure of a man) served as mini courses in morals, ethics, and philosophy for kids, Babylon 5 was the same, but more memorable to me as the arc was 5 seasons, two spinoffs, and like 5 TV movies. I learned all about politics, facism, standing up for what's right, leadership, really cool spaceships, the impact of discrimination, and diplomacy (kind of :)). A great show to watch at an impressionable age.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by henrikschroder on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:06PM (#17899794)
I liked the Gap Series by Stephen Donaldson, he gets zero-g and distances right. I can't remember if their weapons were energy or mass, but space battles essentially boiled down to rolling your ship to always present your best charged shields and damage absorbers towards the enemy.

I'm also a big fan of the Culture series by Iain Banks, it's a lot of high-high-high-tech technobabble, but he gets some physical basics right, it doesn't matter if your ships is enormously more technologically advanced than someone else's, if they can project enough energy onto you, you will be vaporized. He also gets the timescales and distances correctly, because none of it runs on a human decision-making timescale, it's all sentient weapons and AI's, so a close quarters battle is over in seconds.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by zlynx on Monday September 03, 2018 @02:09PM (#17904035)
I liked that bit where the ship's Mind is replaying the battle in slow motion for the humans.

As I remember the story, the actual battle was a loud bang and a violent jerk.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by skookumchuck on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:34PM (#17899895)
> a close quarters battle is over in seconds

Reminds of Hollywood sword fights, where it's clang-clang-clang back and forth and leaping about. A real sword fight is two moves.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by philwelch on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:00PM (#17899771)
> Later, I was reading about molecular nanotechnology, and then considered the idea that un-augmented meatbags like us travelling among the stars is absurd. From an energy expenditure perspective and practically perspective. Basically, if we have the technology to travel to the stars, we won't be humans anymore.

Ehhhh...

If you place a lot of intrinsic value on being human, as most humans do, then the idea of sending non-humans to space is going to completely miss the point.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by 3rdAccount on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:22PM (#17899846)
Eh, I agree with the post you're disagreeing with.

It could be we develop some new physics soon and hopefully the engineering know how to take advantage of it. In this scenario we've developed space travel with a still primitive understanding of human biology. A far more likely option in my eyes (although still very unlikely as this is all speculation and opinion) is that we eventually develop a way to move into the transhuman era and robot ourselves. At this point space travel can use the traditional method of traveling < speed of light although this isn't interesting. Also, if you can upload your mind onto a server, I wonder how much value you'd place on exploration. Of course the singularity concept is just SciFi right now and probably just as likely as us developing wormholes, but it seems like it should be more likely given another century or two.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by lsc on Monday September 03, 2018 @07:21AM (#17901905)
See, I think we could make generation ships with current-ish tech, and travel the stars, really really slowly. I mean, it would be a huge effort; it would be a really difficult engineering problem, and the ships would be easy to wipe out, but it would still largely be an engineering problem that could be solved, mostly, with the science of today (and a whole lot of time and money)

I think I'd put "uploading" in the same category as 'faster than light travel' - lots and lots of breakthroughs in fundamental sciences need to happen before we get either one of those things. (FTL travel feels less squishy to me, but that's just because the problem can be defined in a less squishy sort of way. I see no evidence that it's actually easier) -

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by 3rdAccount on Monday September 03, 2018 @08:38AM (#17902243)
I agree with your second paragraph that any concept of uploading is inherently squishy as we don't even understand the problem domain well enough to show how to do such a project.

As far as colony ships go, I think it would be hard to feed people for a couple of centuries, keep the systems running, and keep the passengers from going insane. It would have to be very big for even a few people in my mind for the agricultural requirements.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by lsc on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @03:58AM (#17915938)
Colony ships would be massively difficult. Maybe even impossibly difficult? but the impossibility would be in the details and the effort. We'd be designing a very complex, very touchy system full of parts that could break. But... I'm just saying, there's nothing in our current understanding of science that makes it impossible, like faster than light travel, and the goal is clear; we'd know it when we finished it, unlike uploading humans.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by mc32 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:56PM (#17899742)
Problem is you need human-relatable protagonists and antagonists to get people interested in your film, so while realistically people in fighter spaceships in close combat makes little sense, it makes sense from an engagement perspective.

If you just had autonomous systems "fighting" without any emotion, or being pathetic in any kind of way, it might be as interesting as watching Mars rovers --cool in some respect but very boring in others.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by JoeDaDude on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:08PM (#17899797)
> Star Wars spacecraft fly around as if they were aircraft in an atmosphere, which isn't surprising given that older war movies were an inspiration for its battle scenes.

Indeed, the following youtube [1] shows how much the original Star Wars borrowed from old WW2 movies, in particular, from "The Dam Busters" [2], 1955.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdb03Hw18M

[2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046889/

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by mirimir on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:48PM (#17899715)
Egan's Diaspora and Stross' Accelerando get it right about moving meatbags being unworkable. And William S. Burroughs was going on about that back in the 80s.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by TheOtherHobbes on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:00PM (#17904296)
That doesn't make uploads any more workable.

Allegedly, it's quite a hard problem.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by sdrothrock on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:42PM (#17899691)
> which isn't surprising given that older war movies were an inspiration for its battle scenes

To add to this, older war movies and actual war footage were directly used to make the storyboards and movement: https://www.starwars.com/news/from-world-war-to-star-wars-do...

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by skookumchuck on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:43PM (#17899934)
> Star Wars

has no logic nor reason to it, nor much of any internal consistency. It's loaded with deus ex machina. You've just got to pith your mind to enjoy it.

For just one spectacular example: the rebels build a base out of a cave, and put a gigantic armored door on the front to protect it. It evidently never occurred to them to explore the cave to see if there was a back entrance? Which of course there was, as that was necessary for the plot.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by Johnny555 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:57PM (#17899758)
In contrast, Star Wars spacecraft fly around as if they were aircraft in an atmosphere

Maybe the spacecraft designers made the spacecraft have aerodynamic-like handling in space so pilots that honed their skills within the atmosphere could use those same skills in space battles.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by koboll on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:08PM (#17899802)
It's more that ships fly around in a way that only makes sense if there is air to provide drag.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by maxerickson on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:12PM (#17899810)
They would be slaughtered by pilots that practiced for space.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by skookumchuck on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:36PM (#17899902)
Dogfighting with airplanes is all about energy management (if surprise has failed). Trading altitude for speed, and vice versa. This doesn't make much sense without gravity and atmospheric drag.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by pavel_lishin on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:43PM (#17899692)
Science fiction author Charles Stross agrees with you, re: sending canned apes into space.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by koboll on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:19PM (#17899836)
It's fun to think about what a combat spaceship would actually look/function like.

For armor, all you'd need is a large shield in front (similar to the movie Sunshine). You can turn to face inbound enemies quickly enough so that you'd only need to defend one angle. Enemies will try to maneuver missiles around it, which could be shot down with lasers behind the shield, making that an ineffective tactic. Then you'd have your own missile banks with which to attack the enemy's shield.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by TeMPOraL on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:39AM (#17901078)
Most combat would be relatively long-range, and for that you'd like to have:

- Guided, smart missiles for punching your opponent.

- Lasers/point-defense guns for shooting enemy smart missiles.

- Lasers for putting pressure on enemy radiators.

- Some way of protecting your own radiators; be it clever ship design, large frontal shield, or mist generators.

If, somehow, you'd end up in a short-range battle (short-range meaning your enemy can't move to evade much further than 1-10x ship size without pulping the crew in time it takes your round to fly to them), you might want to add a machine gun, or possibly a howitzer shooting nuclear-tipped shells on time fuse.

A battle would be expected to last until one party manages to get a missile through (likely nuclear-tipped), or one party surrenders/disengages due to their radiators no longer being able to cope with the heat load.

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by pixl97 on Monday September 03, 2018 @09:49AM (#17902549)
There's a series of science fiction books with space battles based on these ideas by John Ringo. While you hit the main idea, he fleshes it out in more detail, such has how to defeat the anti missile systems, and such.
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by onion2k on Monday September 03, 2018 @02:09AM (#17900689)
Star Wars spacecraft fly around as if they were aircraft in an atmosphere, which isn't surprising given that...

... given that the spacecraft in Star Wars are all used to land on planet surfaces as well as fight in space. :)

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by TeMPOraL on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:23AM (#17901020)
So what, they all had computers simulating atmospheric flights even in space, to make it less confusing for the pilot? :).
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by onion2k on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:45AM (#17901091)
Sure. Let's go with that. :)
Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by ansible on Monday September 03, 2018 @05:06AM (#17901402)
There's actually a space combat video game which tackles this issue head-on called Void Destroyer.

You can pilot your spacecraft in "easy" mode, where it goes in the direction you point it. However, that severely limits its speed. You can also set it to be in full 6-DOF mode (like the Descent video game series), but that takes a lot more practice to do well, and frankly, the interface isn't suited to that. Mostly because with Descent, you are inside a cavern, so that you maintain a good sense of where you are and what direction you are going. That doesn't work as well in outer space, with less "landmarks".

https://store.steampowered.com/app/259660/Void_Destroyer/

Re:The aesthetics of science fiction spaceship design by TeMPOraL on Monday September 03, 2018 @03:55AM (#17901130)
Having both sides agree to that and not cheat would be an unprecedented amount of coordination; you could probably write a sociology paper just from this observation :).