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Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by clon on Saturday September 01, 2018 @02:45PM (#17893325)
https://neomutt.org/

The guy is absolutely right. Mutt is not a gimmick like ascii video on terminal.

It actually makes a lot of sense as an email client and is surprisingly ergonomic. I also enjoy the fact that my config is a normal dotfile that I can version control etc. Also, your passwords can be encrypted using the tools that you choose, as opposed to whatever home grown crypto (if any) the [insert random Electron email client] uses. Some ways are outlined here:

https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg36375.ht...

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by kbenson on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:06PM (#17894137)
Oh, man, I still miss mutt. I should see about getting it set up again. I bet someone has a good config online somewhere for using it as an IMAP client with Gmail...

The only thing that might throw people off is that it uses nano for creating your email... (from the video)

Actually, IIRC it uses the EDITOR environment variable, with some sane fallbacks. I happily wrote emails in vim for years. That said, defaulting to nano with a quick and well known way to swap your buffer to vim (and possibly back) might be a better solution overall. I love vim and use it as my IDE, but the cost/benefit ratio isn't in it's favor when your average time spent on a reply might be very short or when you're writing freeform. Especially if your default config is for wordwrap off because you use it as an IDE...

The other thing to make sure you get nailed down in Mutt is to set up links or elinks as your html view handler, so HTML-only emails can actually be read without extreme difficulty for those cases where a client sent an HTML email without a plain-text companion.

The thing to remember for any program that allows complex configuration like mutt is that you can often search for other people's configs[1] and copy them as your own, and once you get better, you can copy portions of them and tweak as needed to get your own specific customized behavior. I ran FVWM2 as my window manager for over a decade, and I remember every 5-6 months I would do some searching to find interesting new behavior people had implemented that I could tweak and steal (like here[2]). Every time some interesting new UI feature would come out somewhere someone would implement it in FVWM within a couple months.

1: https://gitlab.com/muttmua/mutt/wikis/ConfigList

2: https://www.box-look.org/browse/cat/143/

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by Biqh1 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @02:30AM (#17895895)
When I set up my personal gmail with Mutt, I used the following guides, if you're interested. None of them are perfect, so I did what most people do and took bits and bobs from all of them:

1. [https://smalldata.tech/blog/2016/09/10/gmail-with-mutt]

2. [http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/10/the-homely-mutt/]

3. [https://baptiste-wicht.com/posts/2014/07/a-mutt-journey-my-m...]

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by rsync on Saturday September 01, 2018 @04:28PM (#17893750)
"The guy is absolutely right. Mutt is not a gimmick like ascii video on terminal."

I personally use (al)pine and I could not agree more.

But here is a different, and I hope very provocative, reason that you should consider a terminal email client:

Local mail delivery does not traverse the Internet, or any network.

So, for instance, when I send an email to one of my engineers at rsync.net, even though it is sent in plaintext, it is a private communication and cannot be intercepted by either an ISP or some global observer. It's nothing but a local file operation between two mailspools...

Further, it would be extremely difficult to phish someone who is viewing their email in the terminal. The effort that it takes to view and copy a URL is greater than the discernment required to identify it as suspicious - so you'll catch them every time.

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by sitkack on Saturday September 01, 2018 @09:38PM (#17895001)
Is Alpine still getting security updates? UW doesn't maintain it anymore, like at all. It exists as git repo out in the ether [1]

I'd probably run it in a non-privileged container.

Infact, I should be doing that for Mutt ...

[1] http://repo.or.cz/alpine.git

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by rsync on Sunday September 02, 2018 @01:56AM (#17895812)
"I'd probably run it in a non-privileged container."

Does mutt talk to the network or have a daemon or run as a service ? I don't know the answer to that but I know that for my own use-case, pine is basically a text editor. It executes no programs or code and does not talk to anything but the local SMTP daemon.

How much sanity checking and bounds checking does sendmail (or postfix or whatever) do on email ? That's the question, I think, because again, in my case, the threat vector is very limited - basically an arbitrary (weird) email or piece of an email that somehow breaks pine.

So no, I don't run it in a container - in fact, I run it as the user whose mail spool is the highest sensitivity asset that user owns ... so a container wouldn't help. If you get the mail spool, you get everything - at least or that user...

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by sitkack on Sunday September 02, 2018 @02:23AM (#17895883)
When I used Alpine, it was talking to IMAP and definitely segfaulted a couple times. But an RCE in Alpine != RCE in Postfix (great architecture). I dunno MUAs are so personal, they feel like a perfect place to target and handle more edge cases than upstream processes.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by kbenson on Sunday September 02, 2018 @12:39AM (#17895575)
The last commit to that git repo was a couple days ago, and looking at the log, it gets a new commit every week or so. It may be under different stewardship now, but it definitely seems maintained. The last stable release was last year, but development seems to be proceeding nicely. The full site is at http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by zokier on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:03PM (#17893861)
> But here is a different, and I hope very provocative, reason that you should consider a terminal email client:

> Local mail delivery does not traverse the Internet, or any network.

The implication here being that you are running the clients on the email server. Wouldn't you effectively get the same security by tunneling IMAP over SSH?

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by kbenson on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:15PM (#17894177)
> The implication here being that you are running the clients on the email server.

That's a common scenario, but most linux/BSD distros ship with some mail server software installed and configured to run out of the box, even if also set to not allow external connections, as that's how the system delivers messages to users (e.g. cron output, etc). So almost every linux/BSD is a mail server, even if it may not be the mail server. If there's a main box that people in your company connect to as a terminal, email to local accounts on that box is essentially a internal messaging system. Hell, you could throw an IRC server on there with no outside access and use terminal IRC clients to have your own private chat channel as well. Who needs slack?

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by digi_owl on Saturday September 01, 2018 @10:44PM (#17895225)
Unix have all kinds of funny things if all happens within a single box.

If you want to send someone a message, there is write (if the person have mesg set to yes). There is also talk, but it requires its own daemon.

Seriously, _nix started out in the mainframe era. Meaning that the basic assumption was multiple terminals hooked up to a single computer, with a different user on each terminal.

Sadly we have a generation or more that grew up with single user computers, and seems to insist on turning _nix into that rather than embrace what it can offer.

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by canhascodez on Sunday September 02, 2018 @01:14AM (#17895680)
Multiseat is a bit complex under X11, but certainly possible today. What do you see as the advantages of thin clients, though?
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by kbenson on Sunday September 02, 2018 @05:11AM (#17896284)
I think the point wasn't to specifically lament the lack of thin clients, but the lack of knowledge about how the systems are really designed be multi-user, and actually multi-concurrent-user, as opposed to systems like windows which eventually gained multi-user capabilities, and even then concurrent use isn't exactly the common case (and I'm not sure how well it works in practice, but I imagine with RDP it works well enough on the server products).
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by canhascodez on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:17AM (#17897073)
All of these tools and capabilities still exist; there's probably still some Unix beards hanging out on Nyx and SDF. Yet here we all are having a discussion on HN instead.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by kbenson on Sunday September 02, 2018 @11:04PM (#17900026)
> All of these tools and capabilities still exist

Yes... that's the point of the discussion. They exist, but there is (or is perceived to be) lack of knowledge about their existence and how to make use of them from some newer users, either because of the push for desktop linux, or for whatever reason.

> Yet here we all are having a discussion on HN instead.

I have no idea what you're trying to imply here. I suspect maybe we are discussing similar, but ultimately different, things.

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by canhascodez on Monday September 03, 2018 @12:38AM (#17900354)
I'm implying that multi-user systems were supplanted by web applications, because multi-user systems did not offer good value, and do not scale. Neither do I see these systems being advanced in this thread based on their utility.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by digi_owl on Sunday September 02, 2018 @12:23PM (#17897502)
Multiseat is a dirty hack. It is about using software to build a terminal out of a random collection of screens and input devices. All it has really done is give us yet another "session" to mentally track, in the form of consolekit/logind, on top of the kernel and X provides ones.

And it is not about thin clients, thin clients btw is yet another Windows-ism, it is about the concepts embedded in the unix concept that current day devs seems to either sidestep or downplay while building house of cards in userspace that poorly replicate said concepts.

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by canhascodez on Sunday September 02, 2018 @12:44PM (#17897569)
You're not really explaining what it is that you think is missing from modern computing. From my perspective, none of this technology has gone away, but some things see very little use for good reasons.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by digi_owl on Sunday September 02, 2018 @02:37PM (#17898029)
IT IS NOT THAT IT HAS GONE AWAY, IT IS THAT THE CURRENT GENERATION IS IMPLEMENTING CRAP CLONES OUT OF IGNORANCE AND HUBRIS!!!
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by canhascodez on Sunday September 02, 2018 @03:22PM (#17898185)
You are not entitled to speak to anyone like that, and neither wisdom nor correctness increase with volume. This is a comment which can only be dismissed. I am sure that you have much better arguments at your disposal, if you would condescend to employ them.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by dsr_ on Saturday September 01, 2018 @05:26PM (#17893953)
Any time you run the mail server and the clients connect directly to the mail server via encrypted paths (IMAP/S, SSH tunnel, VPN...) the Internet is not traversed, but the local network is.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by Fnoord on Saturday September 01, 2018 @02:55PM (#17893371)
Mutt/Neomutt is great once you got over the initial trauma of the keybinds and configuring the config plus theme. Except when it comes to HTML e-mail which is a lot more common that I'd like it to be.

For a more up-to-date guide on how to use GPG for your e-mail password [1]

[1] https://pthree.org/2012/01/07/encrypted-mutt-imap-smtp-passw...

Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by Boulth on Saturday September 01, 2018 @03:52PM (#17893625)
Note that the GPG encryption itself is notoriously hard to configure unless one knows to just use gpgme backend (it should be configured by default!). Even then there is a lot of outdated code related to GPG in general (e.g. PKA, no way to locate key by email).
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by too-soon-ago on Saturday September 01, 2018 @03:56PM (#17893635)
That might be okay still with some HTML filtering. Just coerce it to plaintext. Not sure anything of value would be lost.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by anon102051 on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:21PM (#17894200)
What companies would let me use Mutt for email? I have a long list of ideal characteristics for an employer but have decided that a simple test might be that they let me use Mutt.
Re:Can you use the terminal for everything? [video] by sjtgraham on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:26PM (#17894216)
I have never worked in a job where even a single person cared about one's choice of email client.