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Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by WisNorCan on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:21PM (#17882411)
I generally away from regulation, but let me articulate the pro-regulation argument.

Markets that are important (like transportation) and have network effects need to be regulated. A monopoly with Uber and/or Lyft dominating local transportation is not good for consumers or cities in the long-term.

Cities should take control of their transportation and ensure competition by managing allocation of capacity. I think the best parallel is managing of spectrum in telecom to ensure competition.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by austenallred on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:28PM (#17882439)
San Francisco just granted two companies a monopoly when previously there were multiple companies fighting for the same business. That’s the exact opposite of what you’re advocating.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eridius on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:26PM (#17882698)
This is a time-limited pilot program that also caps the number of scooters. It's far from a market monopoly.

In addition, there's no network effect with scooters. Car sharing has the chicken-and-egg problem where you need enough drivers to meet demand, and you need enough passengers to give drivers a reason to drive for you. But scooters are cheap and easy to dump a whole bunch on a city, so there's no reason why a new company can't move in on an existing scooter market. For the most part the only important pieces are the brand recognition of the company and how easy their app is to use. If Uber is serious about scooters, I fully expect them to just move back in when the pilot program is over and immediately pick up a sizeable chunk of the market.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by tomglynch on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:36PM (#17882751)
I disagree. There is a network effect here, people will use the brand that already is installed on their phone PLUS the one that has the most scooters. This is what can occur here.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eridius on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @02:41AM (#17907069)
Using the app already on your phone isn't a network effect. A network effect is when the more users there are, the more valuable the network is to each new user. For ridesharing, the more drivers there are, the more useful the service is to passengers, and the more passengers there are the more attractive the service is to drivers. But for scooters? Whether a given scooter brand is popular or is unknown has no bearing whatsoever on its utility to a new user, all that really matters is whether the scooters are available when and where the user wants them, and whether the app is easy to use.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by JSDave on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:02AM (#17883072)
If someone wanted to sell a new app, they have to get people to recognize their brand and install their app no matter what.

Ride sharing companies then also have to reach a critical mass where drivers and riders can match in a reasonable time. I think overcoming that is the network effect.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by ccvannorman on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:11AM (#17883107)
"Overcoming entering into a new market" is categorically different from "Overcoming a mandatory 6 month freeze on your ability to compete while your competitor gets first dibs."
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by woolvalley on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:34AM (#17883404)
There is definitely a density effect with scooters although. And seeing the past behaviors of governments, 'temporary' things often become permanent limits.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by fipple on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:17AM (#17883132)
Well maybe those companies shouldn’t have been huge assholes the way that Uber was. The city is once bitten and twice shy with Uber.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by austenallred on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:23AM (#17883159)
What did Bird or Lime do?
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by fipple on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:41PM (#17890065)
They created conditions for a massive degradation of the public sidewalk especially for wheelchair users. They did nothing to fix it. Regulators act slowly and rarely, but when they do they always overreact. Entirely predictable.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by WisNorCan on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:31PM (#17882451)
VCs would not be giving billion $ valuations if they thought this will be a highly competitive market with many players. Everyone is betting on a winner takes most market.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by twblalock on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:54PM (#17882553)
I’ve noticed that a lot of “natural” monopolies are regulated under the assumption they will become monopolies but before they actually do.

I suspect a lot of that regulation has been wrong, monopolies would not have emerged, and we would be better off regulating only the monopolies that actually exist.

I’d rather see the scooter companies fight it out than have the city government pick winners and losers when the industry is only a few months old and multiple viable competitors already exist.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by repsilat on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:47PM (#17882520)
Scooters are cheap enough and slow enough that the benefits to scale

- aren't hard to reach for anyone with funding, and

- can be maintained over relatively small geographic areas (neighbourhoods/cities, not states/countries/globally).

If some new company invents a scooter with better tires or a better battery or a disco ball and a stereo it's not hard for them to enter the market. And, in fact, this regulation is happening because the city thinks it's too easy for upstarts to get a toe-hold and cause negative externalities like sidewalk crowding.

(Besides these points: Has anyone made the argument that "overwhelming, unapproachable network-effect leads" are kinda great outcomes for consumers? Like, assume there were 10 facebooks instead of one -- kinda terrible. Or if there were a hundred Ubers and Lyfts, and you didn't know which one had cars close to you... awful.)

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by jonathankoren on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:00AM (#17883065)
That's certainly the conventional wisdom, but there's very little in the way of evidence that this is anything other than a cheap commodity.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by xtqctz on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:37PM (#17882477)
If you consider the short term rental of inexpensive scooters an important market needing laws to regulate their capacity (..by the wise and benevolent leaders of this sparkling city..), it's hard to imagine any market that would fall short of your importance threshold.

The notion that the only way to ensure competition is to forbid it is convoluted.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eropple on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:42PM (#17882499)
When corporate entities happily take money in exchange for their clients littering the streets with eyesores, it is a rather important problem.

Boston hasn't been overrun yet, and I am hopeful that we stay that way.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by stephengillie on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:42PM (#17882776)
Bellevue, WA has a very unique solution. Most of their east-west avenues channel traffic to Bellevue Collection's shopping squares.

But not all. One street in either direction of Bellevue is essentially bus/pedestrian/bicycle friendly - 6th Street and 108th Ave. At their intersection is Bellevue's bus hub. 6th Ave provides bus access to the freeway, and pedestrian-only access to the Bellevue Collection.

108th has a bicycle lane wedged between car parking and the driving lane on either side, and this is where almost all of the Lime Bikes congregate. There are special painted squares, almost like Zipcar parking slots, where the bikes can usually be found. The bikes are occasionally seen outside apartments and businesses, but never for long - none have been there long enough to become a real eyesore.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by xtqctz on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:53PM (#17882551)
The argument was that the market is important, not that the resulting behaviors of users are an important nuisance to you.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eropple on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:55PM (#17882559)
OK.

I care.

Wait, no, I really, really, really really don't.

Ends matter and the ends of the shitty scooter companies are awful at the human scale.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by megaremote on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:24AM (#17882944)
Wow, you must go crazy every time you see a car, which must take up 100x the space, cause 50x the damage.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eropple on Friday August 31, 2018 @10:17AM (#17885756)
1) I believe urban areas--say, within half a mile of a subway stop--should be generally car-restricted to its residents, yes. (Exceptions of course exist but they can be managed; Boston has an MBTA car service for the disabled, as an example.) But no, cars don't belong where humans live.

2) As the sibling comments note, cars tend to park in observance of the law and don't go whizzing down the sidewalk while I am walking to work.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by imtringued on Friday August 31, 2018 @06:31AM (#17884392)
How many of those are improperly parked?
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by almost_usual on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:39AM (#17883212)
cars don’t typically drive down sidewalks
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by NegativeLatency on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:46PM (#17882516)
Have you tried one? They’re actually quite handy.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by stephengillie on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:27PM (#17882702)
If the trip is less than 5 miles, it will be cheaper than $1 to drive my hybrid car there AND back. (Assuming $3.35/gallon at 40 MPG, which is quite realistic for a pair of 5-mile trips.)

Why pay $1 for something that should cost $0.05, and would be difficult to integrate into my life? If I wanted to ride a bicycle, I'd spend the equivalent of 150 Lime rides at Target or Wally World and own my own bicycle. Why rent what you can own?

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by ebikelaw on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:49AM (#17883023)
Yes, assuming that the government massively subsidizes your driving by socializing the carbon externality and providing you with a free mandatory parking space at your origin and destination then it’s “cheaper” to drive.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by stephengillie on Friday August 31, 2018 @08:17AM (#17884868)
The government doesn't subsidize those parking spaces; I pay for one of them in rent ($75/mo), and the other in higher prices/competition. (My workplace is in a city that mandates companies only have 80% parking, to force some employees to bus etc.)

How much do Lime and their competition pay for their parking spots? They're usually left in a sidewalk or other public walkway, using government-provided locations that were intended for a different purpose.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eropple on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:54PM (#17882552)
I have no need for one and I don't need to throw somebody else's brightly colored garbage onto the property of or into the streets I share with my neighbors.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by olalonde on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:23PM (#17882681)
Have you heard of the expression "live and let live"? The level of entitlement displayed in your comments is astounding.

You feel it's reasonable to prevent everyone else from using a very cheap and convenient transportation service just because the vehicles aren't esthetically pleasing to you?

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by eropple on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:22PM (#17888392)
Who is doing the "let live" when a bunch of rental bicycles or a bunch of rental scooters are getting thrown across sidewalks or into a community pond, exactly?

In your world, it's incumbent upon me to let them shit up my town, but not incument upon them--either the users or the companies that supply them--to not shit up our town.

That's a pretty nasty world.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by olalonde on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:52PM (#17888560)
If that really happens I agree they should be fined like any other vehicle parking illegally.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by woolvalley on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:36AM (#17883410)
You forgot about the car eyesores, which outnumber scooter on a 20:1 scale when they were out in full force.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by billfruit on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:26PM (#17882697)
It seems the City Govt are more worried about the eyesore of parked bikes, rather than the cheap mode of transportation enabled by these scooters, in many cases which is even affordable by the homeless. Outright banning or even capacity limitation is pretty dystopian and rent seeking from the part of the City, perhaps the City should just legislate norms for safety and fair usage.

Even if many of these scooters are improperly parked, the parking was done by the users and not the companies themselves, so holding the companies solely responsible for that dose not appear fair.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by djrogers on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:39PM (#17882486)
Wait, so a monopoly with Skip and Scoot is somehow better? Literally the only thing creating any sort of scarcity or monopoly here is regulation, so claiming it's necessary to prevent a monopoly is a bit ludicrous.

I don't think many people are in favor of zero regulation, but politicians literally picking winners and losers instead of the market is even worse.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by adrr on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:14PM (#17882637)
Politicians shouldn't be picking winners or losers as this can lead to corruption and regulatory capture.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by greglindahl on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:34PM (#17882735)
The city held a bidding process to pick two initial winners, which is ... a market. I guess you prefer a different organization to the market, but...
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by seehafer on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:32PM (#17882452)
>A monopoly with Uber and/or Lyft dominating local transportation is not good for consumers or cities in the long-term.

As opposed to a city ineffectively delivering transportation to such an extent that people have to drive their personally-owned cars everywhere?

Anyone in SF who was here before Uber will tell you that Uber and Lyft were and remain a godsend. Cabs were few and far between (there's an Eddie Izzard bit about this actually) and Muni is slow and unreliable.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by WisNorCan on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:35PM (#17882468)
You are attacking a position that I am not advocating. I am not suggesting government run transportation. I am suggesting that government ensure that the private market remains competitive with multiple players by allocating capacity.

In any case, the only thing worse than government running services is a company with a monopoly running services. The first tends to be inefficient. The second tends to be inefficient with a profit motive (see Comcast).

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by ams6110 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:42PM (#17882498)
No, government services are worse. I can opt out of Comcast.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by NegativeLatency on Thursday August 30, 2018 @10:49PM (#17882531)
Sure if you want DSL.

Choices in my market are: dialup, dsl, and Comcast.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by mavhc on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:01AM (#17883772)
Why is DSL so bad in USA? Everywhere else people seem fine with it
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by baddox on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:28PM (#17882708)
Does your state or local government have a deal with Comcast effectively awarding it a monopoly? There’s a fairly good chance the answer is yes.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by NegativeLatency on Friday August 31, 2018 @03:16PM (#17888072)
I live in Portland, OR. I don't think there's a granted monopoly to Comcast here.

There is actually a small independent WISP here I would love to use, but they don't serve my particular location currently.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by emodendroket on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:05PM (#17882602)
Yeah you can opt out of the water utility too, if you don't mind going without.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by bradleybuda on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:15PM (#17882641)
How do "transportation" companies (dockless scooters in this case) have network effects? The automobile industry, which is about as mature as markets get, has seven companies in the US with at least 5% market share and the leader (GM) has merely 17%, and is largely bereft of command-and-control economic policies.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by greglindahl on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:24PM (#17882687)
For a scooter, I have to walk until I find a scooter for a company that I'm enrolled with. Do I even have company X's app on my phone to show their scooter nearby? If I run across company Y's scooter, how much effort is it for me to enroll to use it? And is company Z offering me a bulk discount?

All of these are totally different from buying a car.

Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by superchink on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:04PM (#17894130)
Dumb question: are you arguing that renting a scooter is harder than buying a car? Or easier?
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by greglindahl on Saturday September 01, 2018 @06:12PM (#17894161)
Neither. I'm saying they're completely different things with respect to network effects, in response to someone who thought they were similar in some fashion.
Re:San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber... by pjscott on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:47PM (#17882796)
There aren't a lot of barriers to entry in the ride-hailing market. Want to ride with another service? It's just another app. Want to drive for one more service in addition to the rest? Again, just another app that sends notifications.

If Uber and/or Lyft get a monopoly and then jack up prices, they won't have a monopoly for long.