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Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by adventured on Sunday August 26, 2018 @10:33PM (#17849113)
Humans are clearly exceptional in numerous positive ways. There is no real debate to be had there.

Let me know when the whales, monkeys and dolphins put a telescope into orbit. And let me know what the grieving orca thinks about generational knowledge transference or the afterlife.

Human exceptionalism isn't simultaneously a degradation of the amazing traits of other species. Just because humans are exceptional intellectually compared to gorillas, that doesn't actually take anything away from gorillas.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by projektir on Sunday August 26, 2018 @10:37PM (#17849116)
Neither of those things indicate that humans have wildly different inner lives, though. A lot of these may perhaps be attributed to a combination of language development and tools usage, neither of which is really relevant to the parent's point in any way, so I don't really understand your digression.

Humans DO have a history of degrading the inner lives of animals and it's a problem. We don't even know for sure that humans are exceptional intellectually compared to gorillas in an objective sense, we're just deriving that from the aforementioned telescope example which is not scientific in the slightest.

Humans have plenty to be proud of but with things like "we're more intelligent" or "we're more emotionally developed" as opposed to "we got a lucky combination of things" I'd rather be really careful.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by toomanybeersies on Monday August 27, 2018 @12:23AM (#17849416)
> Humans DO have a history of degrading the inner lives of animals and it's a problem

Humans have enough a history of degrading the inner lives of fellow humans, let alone other animals.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:35PM (#17849290)
There's no need to resort to fancy engineering projects -- where's the animal that knows how to craft novel utterances to express new ideas, or the animal that has a sense of self? The animal that has an awareness of its own mortality? The animal that can appreciate ideas like morality? It doesn't exist.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by jahewson on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:55PM (#17849344)
You’re literally describing dolphins:

“New evidence suggests that dolphins, like elephants and the great apes, may comprehend their own mortality.”

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/stories/do-dolphin...

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by interfixus on Monday August 27, 2018 @12:01AM (#17849360)
> * It doesn't exist*

[citatation needed]

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:57AM (#17850066)
Generally you can't really prove a negative but feel free to give counterexamples
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by interfixus on Monday August 27, 2018 @04:08AM (#17850097)
Of something you claim cannot be proven, perhaps a less categorial expression than "It doesn't exist".

I do believe I have seen animal examples of all three of your statements, an logically, there must have been among our ancestors, but the onus isn't really on me.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @04:13AM (#17850119)
Look, I can't prove that there aren't goblins either, and yet I bet you wouldn't demand I couch a statement about their existence in weak language like "to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that goblins exist."
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by interfixus on Monday August 27, 2018 @04:25AM (#17850166)
You claim the non-existence of "the animal that has a sense of self". This is unsubstatiated, to say the very least, or patently nonsense, to say a bit more.

And yes you can. I use expressions all the time very much like "to the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that God exists".

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @04:55AM (#17850260)
If it's so nonsensical surely you can find counterexamples. Animals are frequently confused by their own reflections.

I never claimed that you can't use noncommittal language to dismiss things for which there is no evidence; I just don't really feel like there is any point.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by EliRivers on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:37AM (#17850401)
Animals are frequently confused by their own reflections.

While some animals see their own reflections and use them to examine parts of their own body that they could not otherwise see.

Animal research has a long history of finding animals exhibiting something that has been touted as a human-only trait; the weight of experience seems to be heading towards the idea that there is no human trait exceptionalism, only a combination of various traits to various degrees. So many traits that someone has posited as the uniquely human trait has subsequently been seen in animals. Maybe one day someone will find something, but thus far the record isn't good.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:42AM (#17850413)
The most obvious one to me (because it was within my field of study in college) is language. Animal communication is very different from human communication and not capable of expressing novel ideas. Someone is going to tell me about Koko the Gorilla, but ape "sign language" is nothing of the sort; at best they've learned to sign a few words, but mostly it seems like they make the signs at random in the hopes of getting food. Looking at transcripts shows how much fanciful interpretation Koko's handlers did. And without language I can't see how animals can be capable of introspection.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by EliRivers on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:47AM (#17850428)
without language I can't see how animals can be capable of introspection.

One could harshly propose that's a failure of imagination (probably shared by almost everyone else, self-included; I introspect in words too), limited by one's own experiences; since you've got language and use it always to introspect, and probably cannot even remember not having language, you cannot conceive of introspecting without it. More so, since it was your field of study; you've immersed yourself in it to a great degree. I wonder if baby humans without language introspect. It seems there is some evidence young humans do [0]. These people say they've seen it in animals, but I'm no expert [1].

I honestly don't know, but I believe that humans are part of a spectrum of animal and I take the opposite assumption to you; that until proven otherwise, we have no singularly unique trait.

[0] https://medicalxpress.com/news/2007-08-toddlers-capable-intr...

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1861845/

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @05:52AM (#17850437)
Well in linguistics they usually postulate a sort of "universal language," where every human being has certain linguistic capabilities that are reflected in universal traits of every human language. The machinery is there but not hooked up, so to speak. (There are also various oddities like twins inventing their own languages) So merely observing that pre-verbal humans are capable of introspection is not, in my view, sufficient to suggest that language and introspection can be separated.

I suppose "introspection" is a pretty woolly term, though, and we could disagree about what the bounds of it are. The abstract about "metacognition" in rats is interesting but I think a little broader than what I had in mind.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by EliRivers on Monday August 27, 2018 @06:00AM (#17850467)
Is that the Noam Chomsky style built-in, universal grammar theory? I thought (but I really don't know) that had been discredited in recent times. But this is your field of study; not mine.

As an aside on the general conversation at hand, I suspect that the experience of humans is so much based on being a human that we struggle even to think about not being human; that we have so many assumptions we carry about what thinking is and what language is and so on. My favoured example of this is an experiment showing that humans have a special ability for recognising faces, based on giving other primates tests of face recognition. Go humans!

When the test was repeated, some time later, using faces from their own species instead of human faces, it turned out that they were actually also pretty good at it. The original experiment had used human faces to test with, because those were obviously much more distinctive. I suspect, but cannot prove, that we're trying to reason about non-humans from within a prison of human thought and experience and assumption that affects everything.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by 36bydesign on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:08PM (#17849216)
Things human value (exploration, science) aren’t necessarily things other species would value. We tend to destroy the planet in our pursuits, so I’m not as confident as you are in our own species’ intellectual superiority.

Many species have better memories than humans, including most monkey/ape species. We have exceptional dexterity while dolphins don’t, so is it a fair fight to judge intelligence by putting a telescope into orbit? Do dolphins have as high a rate of depression in their species as humans? Do they have as many wars as us? Again, are we really that much more intelligent than these other species? Measuring intelligence is hard because we don’t have a rigorous definition.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:33PM (#17849281)
The only species which even begins to have a plausible comparison is the octopus. Yes, I feel completely confident saying we're more intelligent than orcas or monkeys.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by FranzFerdiNaN on Monday August 27, 2018 @01:18AM (#17849583)
But the question was if “more intelligent” gives us the authority to eat them, or make them go extinct by destroying their habitat, or abuse them for medicine trials.

And if “more intelligent” is a valid reason you are immediately entering a weird area where it is okay to eat a baby because hey, it’s less intelligent! But I doubt many people would think that’s a valid reason, so we’re back to speciesism. which is also problematic because then we appoint the human as sole judge and juror of all living things.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by emodendroket on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:26AM (#17849961)
That's a separate question but not the one any of the posts I replied to were addressing. I don't think it's honest to attribute to shield properties they don't have simply because you don't like the implications of the reality.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by JoshTko on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:23PM (#17849256)
So did humans 20,000 years ago lack emotional depth since they had yet to invent complex technology?
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by andrelaszlo on Monday August 27, 2018 @03:13AM (#17849915)
Interestingly, some people have argued that they did lack our depth. [1]

Personally I don't think it's relevant to this discussion. Saying that consciousness is more complex than "you either have it or you don't" seems like a trivial observation.

Peter Singer argues [2] that "the fundamental interest that entitles a being to equal consideration is the capacity for suffering and/or enjoyment or happiness" (and that this applies to any being, human or not). I think that this is a much more interesting approach. Yes, this makes things more complex ("where do you draw the line") but it also seems more honest.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer#Applied_ethics

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by laretluval on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:36PM (#17849291)
They likely had the same cognitive capacity as us, and if dropped into a modern environment could invent complex technology.

No other animal can do this as far as we know.

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by colanderman on Monday August 27, 2018 @12:57AM (#17849517)
Yes, but "designing complex technology" has little to nothing to do with capability to feel emotion.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by laretluval on Monday August 27, 2018 @08:10PM (#17855578)
It establishes a major way in which human minds are different from animal minds, such that generalizing from humans to animals may be incorrect.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by tlear on Sunday August 26, 2018 @11:41PM (#17849302)
Humans had bow and arrow, sling, spear thrower. Which is might as well be satellite in orbit when compared to tech of any animal we know off.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by sharmi on Monday August 27, 2018 @12:28AM (#17849433)
Tool making and use among animals have been documented for quite some time. [1] What's significant is , in most cases, the animals are both "tool makers" and "tool users". They find items most suitable for their purpose and adapt it as much as possible. May be, they are not as versatile as we are, but they have the recognition that

1. Objects can be repurposed for some other use that what they see in nature.

2. Certain objects are better suited than others, though they are similar.

3. A fore said objects can be modified further to increase efficiency.

4. This knowledge is often passed among communities and families through observation or teaching rather than as genetic changes.

>> Both bonobos and chimpanzees have been observed making "sponges" out of leaves and moss that suck up water and using these for grooming

>> Elephants have been observed digging holes to drink water, then ripping bark from a tree, chewing it into the shape of a ball thereby manufacturing a "plug" to fill in the hole, and covering it with sand to avoid evaporation. They would later go back to the spot to drink.

>> Indo-Pacific bottlenose dolphins made up of approximately 41-54 animals, are known to use conical sponges (Echinodictyum mesenterinum) as tools while foraging. ...During sponging, dolphins mainly target fish that lack swim bladders and burrow in the substrate. Therefore, the sponge may be used to protect their rostrums as they forage in a niche where echolocation and vision are less effective hunting techniques. Sponging may be socially learned from mother to offspring.

>> Woodpecker Finches have been observed to use a different type of tool with novel functional features such as barbed twigs from blackberry bushes, a plant that is not native to the islands. The twigs were first modified by removing side twigs and leaves and then used such that the barbs helped drag prey out of tree crevices.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_use_by_animals

Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by tlear on Monday August 27, 2018 @01:26AM (#17849611)
Bow is a massive leap over those tools as is a sling. Laser cutter, or laptop are tool as well and you can probably teach Chimpanzee to use both to some degree.
Re:What the grieving mother orca tells us about how animals ... by sharmi on Monday August 27, 2018 @01:59AM (#17849702)
Before, bow and arrow, humans used stone tools. Before that they used just stones. We took several millennia to make the progress we did.