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Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by politelemon on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @02:58AM (#17807617)
> Please save yourself a lot of heartache and just use containerd.

Part of the appeal of Docker is the ease with which developers new to the concept of containers can pick it up. I cannot say the same for containerd. Try a search for containerd tutorials and compare what you find with docker tutorials.

> People don't realize just how easy all this stuff will be to replace.

Think carefully about why that is. If it were easy, it would have been understood. So, no - understanding the replaceability of the container components is not easy. That is why people have not realized it.

The issue with many docker's competitors is it appeals to docker experts. The abstraction and terminology itself is not straightforward.

A lot of hyperbole in your comment is unnecessary and/or undeserved. Of course I realize that this is HN where k8s, rkt and containerd are used largely by the visiting audience. But don't forget the dark matter developers.

Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by majewsky on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @03:51AM (#17807848)
> Try a search for containerd tutorials and compare what you find with docker tutorials.

containerd is just a building block. You'll actually be looking for a Kubernetes tutorial, which the internet is sprawling with.

Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by oblio on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @06:18AM (#17808418)
Yeah, but how's the dev experience for Kubernetes, even with all those tutorial? How easy is it to install on Windows, for example?
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by tapoxi on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:44AM (#17809467)
choco install minikube

choco install kubernetes-cli

minikube start

(You'll need Hyper-V, however.)

Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by rutthenut on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @08:24AM (#17808911)
If you have Docker for Windows, it includes K8S too, out of the box
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by raesene9 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @06:44AM (#17808497)
although I've not seen much on K8s + containerd without Docker in terms of tutorials, it is a very new space, and (IIRC) cri-containerd is also pretty new.

I'm not aware of many k8s distro's running anything other than Docker by default, at the moment

Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by estesp on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:32AM (#17809352)
IBM Cloud has 1.11+containerd in production (https://twitter.com/estesp/status/1029739247606145025), GKS has containerd as an "alpha" option during k8s cluster creation; Azure has stated direction to move to containerd for AKS (and their OSS deploy tool already supports containerd on cluster creation)
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by raesene9 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @10:06AM (#17809656)
Cool, I guess I'm not surprised that IBM Cloud are leading the way there :) are you aware of any on-prem options shipping Containerd as a default so far?
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by estesp on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @12:46PM (#17811232)
I know our own on-prem (IBM Cloud Private) has containerd in testing and looking for a late year release where containerd is the primary engine. I'm not as up to speed on who else is offering on-prem K8s; but I do know minikube is also getting containerd integration as we speak.
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by raesene9 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @01:39PM (#17811886)
Awesome, I had a play with getting containerd running without Docker a little while back and it all worked, just required a bit more effort than Docker :) It'll be interesting to see what happens as more k8s options adopt it
Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by cdoxsey on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @07:27AM (#17808667)
In my opinion docker is not a good fit for the problems its trying to solve.

On the developer side I'm trying to build a artifact of my application which can run on servers. I'm probably using windows or osx as my development environment, and I'm probably targeting linux. So docker is a tool I can use to create a container to achieve my goal.

But it doesn't do a good job of that. The dockerfile format can be very frustrating to work with. And all the terminology sets a very high barrier of entry for usage. Yes its all googleable, but sometimes I think the solution is harder to use than the problem it set out to solve.

Go, Java, .Net, even javascript with Node, all do a much better job of making it easy for developers to build cross-platform applications. Without the need to learn an arcane file format and clumsy cli tool.

As an example of that frustration, building a cross-platform Go app is as easy as setting an environment variable. No additional configuration is required and there are no additional tools you need to install. The binary that is produced has everything it needs to run and can be deployed without having to use specialized tools.

Whereas building a Go app in a container with Docker means you end up retrieving all the dependencies every time and you get no package caching for builds so they take 10 minutes. For any large project you will inevitably break out your docker files into separate steps with some sort of make file. You will then bang your head against a wall for days trying to get docker in docker to work for your CI build system.

Is that really the best we can do?

But docker is also about isolation, file formats, conventions for deployments, protocols, etc. And yes it's a step forward in many ways. Containers are great for allowing the ops side to focus on running an application instead of making sure its configured properly.

But on so many of these dimensions docker has had major problems. It's not really safe to run arbitrary containers, so the isolation is an illusion. Because of the way the tooling works the containers are way too big and contain way too many unnecessary dependencies - which end up being security liabilities because they aren't upgraded often enough.

But ultimately docker turned out to be way too low level. It's why something like Kubernetes exists. It's a much higher level way of describing how an application should work.

So docker is getting pressure from both sides and that's why I think its days are numbered. The formats and conventions will stick around, but once they start requiring people to pay for the local development tool, everyone will move on and we'll stop talking about docker at all anymore.

Re:Docker cannot be downloaded without logging into Docker S... by megamindbrian2 on Tuesday August 21, 2018 @09:28AM (#17809321)
Thanks for the shout out. Is there a good tutorial you could recommend for containerd?

I am looking for features similar to Norton Ghost bust faster than waiting for installers every time I build.