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Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by tomp on Friday August 17, 2018 @06:01AM (#17781578)
They're so special that they both completely revolutionized their respective industries. What makes them even more special, is that neither made any big technological breakthrough. All the technology has been available for years (decades?), just not productionized. Which tells you that the "major companies" in both industries were literally sitting on their asses, enjoying their oligopolistic/monopolistic profits and doing the minimal R&D necessary to maintain them. Shame on them.
Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @09:52AM (#17782811)
The moralizing is unwarranted. Tesla, for example, happened when it did because of several convergent phenomena:

1) Increasingly more expensive gas and more rigorous fuel-consumption standards.

2) Massive increase in lithium ion battery production from consumer electronics;

3) A willingness of VCs to bankroll years of massive losses;

4) A federal program of offering massive subsidies to electric cars.

These things didn't exist 15 years ago. (Which is not to say that Tesla doesn't deserve a lot of credit for capitalizing on them, but Tesla's success is not evidence that existing car manufacturers were "sitting on their asses." It's also just factually wrong. Toyota and GM both produced electric cars in late 1990s, early aughts, way before Tesla was founded. But at the time, consumer surveys showed that they would only buy electric cars if they were sold for tens of thousands of dollars less than a gasoline car. All those phenomena closed that gap: exploding gas prices made gasoline cars relatively more expensive; federal and stage governments offered up to $10,000 in total incentives for buying an EV; and lithium ion battery technology resulted in major improvements in weight and range.)

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by tomp on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:30AM (#17783042)
1) Oil was pretty expensive since 2005. 2) Everyone could capitalize on that. 3) Existing big car companies could finance R&D themselves. 4) According to Wikipedia, incentives started around 2011, way after Tesla was funded and probably before other car manufacturers started moving.

The fact remains that none of the existing car manufacturers decided to even try to compete with Tesla until it was painfully obvious that Tesla's going to "make it" (i.e. Model S) and that consumers love their electric cars.

That happened about 5 or so years ago. Not 10 years ago. Not 15 years ago. It happened because of Tesla/Musk, and would likely be very much delayed if it wasn't for him.

They had a chance to improve technology, satisfy consumer demand (Apple showed a decade ago that consumers don't know what they want) and help save the planet, but they didn't. Shame on them.

Edit: I don't want to be argumentative, I think we mostly agree. I'm just saying that the rest of the companies all missed a huge market opportunity, same as I keep saying for all computer companies that make shittier laptops than Apple...

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:57AM (#17783285)
> 1) Oil was pretty expensive since 2005. 2) Everyone could capitalize on that. 3) Existing big car companies could finance R&D themselves. 4) According to Wikipedia, incentives started around 2011, way after Tesla was funded and probably before other car manufacturers started moving.

You're just completely wrong on the chronology.

The federal tax credits were in place for the 2009 tax year: https://www.tesla.com/blog/tax-incentives-why-roadster-costs.... The Roadster was released in late 2008 (only 150 units shipped in 2008). Almost all of Tesla's capital raise came after 2010: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2018/04/25/a-brief-h....

> The fact remains that none of the existing car manufacturers decided to even try to compete with Tesla until it was painfully obvious that Tesla's going to "make it" (i.e. Model S) and that consumers love their electric cars.

Again, your chronology is completely wrong. By the time the Model S came out, GM had already been selling the Chevy Volt for almost two years. And throughout both cars' run, the Chevy Volt has been selling at approximately the same volume as the Model S (both car sold 110-130k units through the end of 2017). The Nissan Leafs also came out in 2010, and more Leafs had been sold as of the beginning of 2018 than total Tesla vehicles.

To recap: other car manufacturers (GM and Toyota) were first to market with EVs, in the late 1990s. They were also first to market with mainstream popular EVs, in 2010, two years before the Model S.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by tomp on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:16AM (#17783444)
My props to GM and Toyota. I wonder what went wrong for them. They even look decent (unlike BMW i3), especially Chevy Bolt!
Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by TangoTrotFox on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:36AM (#17783094)
Your logic does not make sense here. These exact same perks were available to the established automotive industry as well. And on top of all of that they had vastly greater economc resources, infrastructure resources, and even greater talent to draw from as well. It's not like "Musk can have these, but not you guys!" The playing field was not fair, but that's because it was heavily weighted towards established players. That these players failed to achieve anything is a very strong indicator that they were indeed just "sitting on their asses." Consider that Tesla started after, and in part as a response to, GM deciding to recall and destroy their EV1 electric vehicle. As well even your claims of subsidies and consumer price sensitivity work against your argument. Tesla was built on the Roadster. An ultra high end electric vehicle. Somebody paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car isn't suddenly going to be swayed by a $10k tax credit.

Finally we can even take things like the federal automotive bailouts. Ford, for instance, took a sub-inflation rate loan of $5.9 billion from the taxpayer, which they unsurprisingly have not paid back. It was supposed to be used to develop fuel efficient vehicles. A literal check for $5.9 billion just blows every point in your list out of the water. Yet, Ford not only dawdled but most recently announced they've cancelled every sedan/car in their line except the Mustang and one upcoming vehicle. That leaves them 90% of their lineup distributed towards trucks, SUVs, and commercial vehicles. And the next time gas prices spike, we can bet they'll come begging for another handout from the taxpayer. Just brilliant business acumen by these guys.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:03AM (#17783335)
The Roadster (released 2008) sold less than 2,500 vehicles. It is a historical curiosity, like the EV1--the fact that a tiny handful of people bought the Roadster without tax incentives tells you little about how consumers would react to a mainstream vehicle. The story of mainstream EVs starts with the federal tax incentives in 2009, the GM Volt and Nissan Leaf in 2010, and the Tesla Model S in 2012.

Tesla has done a good job making popular, well-rated cars. But this idea that they were "first" while others were "sitting on their asses" is just completely factually incorrect. Competing car manufacturers dipped their toes into EVs years before Tesla even existed, and everyone rushed to build mainstream EVs in the same 2007-2012 time frame, with Nissan and GM releasing their products first.[1]

[1] Also, I don't see the relevance of the Ford loan? I'm not the one trying to add a moral dimension to the history of EVs. There is none. The relevance of the federal subsidies is not "oh, Tesla took subsidies." But rather that subsidies were necessary to make EVs attractive to consumers. The EV1 was canceled because consumer surveys in the late 1990s showed that you'd have to sell an EV for $28,000 less than a gas car to get consumers to buy it. Rising gas prices closed up a lot of that gap, along with advances in battery technology improving range. But the $10,000 or so in federal and state tax credits also played a huge role in making EVs palatable to consumers.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by gehsty on Friday August 17, 2018 @07:22AM (#17781923)
I don't think you can describe modern car manufacturing as sitting on its ass.... and I don't think you can describe Tesla as revolutionizing the manufacturing process...

I think Tesla has revolutionized the automotive industry by making a desirable electric car, the technology they have within the car is nothing exclusive to Tesla. Other companies can build electric cars, but Tesla made the first truly desirable electric car.

SpaceX has 100% revolutionized space flight and I hope this continues.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by tomp on Friday August 17, 2018 @07:29AM (#17781947)
> by making a desirable electric car, the technology they have within the car is nothing exclusive to Tesla. Other companies can build electric cars, but Tesla made the first truly desirable electric car.

This is exactly my point. Tesla didn't happen because of Musk's intelligence, or talent, or ingenuity, or genius. It happened because of Musk's drive. Before Tesla/Musk, electric cars weren't even part of the public consciousness (even though they were completely technically feasible, as you agree). It was a revolutionary idea.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by nostrebored on Friday August 17, 2018 @08:20AM (#17782220)
They absolutely were. The push for non-gas cars existed before Tesla. Tesla made the commitment to make them cheap (which they've arguably failed to do, especially considering that you're being taxed to fund them, regardless of if you're a consumer).

Musk is a world-class rent seeker.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by varjag on Friday August 17, 2018 @09:09AM (#17782517)
Sorry, electric cars before Tesla were Trabant-like lunchboxes on wheels from 3rd tier/garage makers. They were looked upon as eccentricities like velomobiles or hot air balloons. Nissan Leaf of BMW i3 would not been happening if not a mainstream EV market single-handedly formed by Tesla.

You can argue that someone else could have stepped in, but that someone had to be an outsider, not an established car manufacturer. That is something like Tesla and Musk, but with another name.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:06AM (#17782898)
Toyota offered an electric version of its RAV4, an extremely popular crossover SUV, a decade before the Tesla roadster came out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV. But in 1997, gas was cheap and the government wasn't subsidizing EVs to the tune of $7,500-$10,000.

It's hard to say what would've happened in a hypothetical timeline. But Tesla didn't invent the underlying technology, the traditional car makers were already working on it. Tesla wasn't responsible for EV subsidies in 2008, it was a combination of exploding gas prices, middle east instability, the Iraq war, and Obama getting elected. Good chance that the EV market would've taken exactly the same course without Tesla.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by varjag on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:23AM (#17782990)
I honestly don't remember anyone saying Musk/Tesla invented electric car, this is quite obviously a point argued by zero people.

Sure there was that Toyota with NiMH batteries. How many of them were sold for enirety of its production run.. 2000? 4000? With Toyota resources and vast marketing force?

My friend had a 1990 VW Golf electric smallseries with lead batteries. It was also fun to ride.. as an experience. Like a hot air balloon ride. But not a very practical everyday car. It was also so obscure it has no own Wikipedia page.

Tesla took the EV business from the dumpster and made it mainstream.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:15AM (#17783435)
But Tesla didn't make electric cars mainstream either at least not alone. The Roadster was not mainstream, selling 2,500 units. More than the ~1,000 EV1 or 1,500 RAV4 EV, but in the same ballpark.

To the extent that any electric cars are mainstream (and I would ague they are not--Toyota sells more RAV4s each year than all the cars Tesla has ever sold in its history), several mainstream models were released around the same time. The Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf came out in 2010, and the Model S in 2012. The Volt and Model S have sold a similar number of units, with the Leaf selling about double that.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by JoeAltmaier on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:14AM (#17782941)
A RAV4 would not (did not) capture the public imagination like the Tesla Roadster did. Like it or not, marketing was a huge part of the EV success. And Tesla did that marketing, not the other car companies, which seem culturally incapable of celebrating an EV's performance or coolness.
Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:33AM (#17783064)
If marketing EVs as "cool" was "a huge part of the EV success," you'd see other car manufacturers trying to ride that wave by engaging in similar marketing efforts. But you see the opposite. Nissan, Toyota, Chevy, BMW, are all mainly focused on "cute and practical."

People here in suburban Maryland don't give a shit about high performance, "cool," cars. But they love RAV4s, and Nissan Rogues, and Honda CR-Vs. Each of those models sells more units every year than Tesla has sold in its entire history.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by JoeAltmaier on Friday August 17, 2018 @10:58AM (#17783294)
...because its not so nerdy to own one, now. Because of marketing.

And of course old ICE designers are incapable of marketing their EVs as anything but cute. That's why they never could have made this market what it is, on their own?

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by rayiner on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:21AM (#17783483)
That's some crazy grasping at straws. It is ridiculous to say that Tesla marketing high-performance sports sedans somehow paved the way for cars like the Nissan Leaf, which are cute little EVs that look like EVs. It is even more ridiculous to say that Tesla somehow made the EV market "what it is" by marketing high-performance sports sedans, when the majority of the cars in the market are cute little EVs like the Leaf.

People don't give a shit about sports sedans. The Prius proved there was a market for a cute little car that was environmentally friendly, and that's what's driving most of the EV market right now. When someone releases a sub-$30k cross-over SUV (you know, the cars people actually buy), then you'll see EV sales really take off.

Re:Elon Musk Confronts a Fateful Tweet and an ‘Excruciating’... by JoeAltmaier on Friday August 17, 2018 @11:42AM (#17783607)
Still I can't get over how, none of this took off until Tesla got in the news.

And the stats I read show the Tesla model S leading the Leaf?