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Re:Manners in Early Modern England by Nasrudith on Thursday August 09, 2018 @12:07AM (#17721580)
That seems to map very well to feudalism and well blood feud cultures as well. There was an interesting thing that happened in both Japanese and English linguistically - both had 'ultrapolite' linguistic elements that were discarded because they wound up used only mockingly/ironically when it went from polite to refer to your superior using thee/thou as opposed to rude. Thee/thou was transitioning to rude in Shakespeare's time and while Japanese still has many formal pronouns the most extreme were reserved for historical fiction, mockery, and the massively arrogant.
Re:Manners in Early Modern England by groovy2shoes on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:13AM (#17721768)
You've got it sorta backwards, at least as far as English is concerned.

"Thou" and "thee" were the descendents of Old English "þū" and "þē", respectively, and were originally the nominative and dative[1] forms of the singular second-person pronoun. "Ye" and "you" (< OE "ġē" and "ēow") were the corresponding forms of the plural second-person pronoun. In the High Middle Ages, English adopted the "tu-vous distinction", named after the French pronouns corresponding to "thou-you", wherein social superiors were always addressed in the plural (cf. "the royal we"). "Thou" fell out of use because people did not want to risk offending anyone by implying the other was their social inferior, wherefore they began addressing everyone as a superior.

When Shakespeare writes "I thou thee!", it's not to ironically mock, but rather to explicitly disparage, by asserting that the recipient is inferior, unworthy of being ye'd.

Of course, the vacuum created by the loss of a productive singular was later filled by constructions like "y'all", "you guys", "yous", &c. The same phenomenon occurred in Dutch, where the singular "du"/"di" was replaced by the plural (and therefore formal) "gi/u" during the Middle Dutch period, and the plural later filled by "jullie", a contraction of "je lui", meaning "you folks".

[1]: In late Old English, also the accusative, replacing "þec". From Middle English, the oblique (the sole objective case).

Re:Manners in Early Modern England by jpatokal on Thursday August 09, 2018 @08:36AM (#17723638)
Japanese continues to have plenty of "ultrapolite linguistic elements". However, there are many formerly polite pronouns for "you" that have, over time, become blunt or outright rude: omae, temae > temee, kisama, etc.

These transitions can also be rapid: my mother-in-law calls me otaku without a hint of irony, since that was a perfectly polite term until it was suddenly adopted to refer to sociopathic geeks in the wake of the Tsutomi Miyazaki murders in 1989. Like many people in her age group, she never got the memo on this.

Re:Manners in Early Modern England by vostok on Thursday August 09, 2018 @12:33AM (#17721660)
> when it went from polite to refer to your superior using thee/thou as opposed to rude

That's fascinating. In my native language you would have been considered more polite and thou would be for friends or equals.

Re:Manners in Early Modern England by tdumitrescu on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:01AM (#17721729)
That is indeed how it was. "thou" was the familiar form in contrast to "you" which was the formal form (see for instance the discussion at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou). Modern English speakers typically hear "thou" as more formal because it only persists in Biblical and similar archaic usages.
Re:Manners in Early Modern England by eecc on Thursday August 09, 2018 @01:49AM (#17721876)
The use of “thou” in the English translation of the Bible was made deliberately to “lessen the gap” with the divinity (as opposed to the incomprehensible Latin used by the Catholics.) Funny how that got lost and it’s now perceived as old-fashioned submissiveness.
Re:Manners in Early Modern England by groovy2shoes on Thursday August 09, 2018 @05:14AM (#17722682)
As far as I can tell, the use of "thou" in the early (until about the 17th century) English translations was to preserve the grammatical number found in the Hebrew and Greek originals, which had separate forms for singular and plural second-person pronouns. This was certainly the case in the Old English translations, as well as in Wycliffe's Middle English and Tyndale's early Modern English. When those translations were made, "thou" and "ye" were the ordinary English words that corresponded with the originals. It has nothing at all to do with Latin.

At the time James VI/I commissioned his Authorized translation, "thou" was already starting to fall out of production, but was not something that seemed foreign or archaic to English speakers, and he'd asked his translators to follow the style of the existing English translations, which were by-and-large based on Tyndale's. There are certainly some ways in which the translation attempts to emphasize certain theological/christological viewpoints, but the usage of "thou" is not one of them.

Re:Manners in Early Modern England by pulisse on Thursday August 09, 2018 @08:38AM (#17723652)
> There are certainly some ways in which the translation attempts to emphasize certain theological/christological viewpoints, but the usage of "thou" is not one of them.

It wasn't theologically neutral, though. To address God with the polite plural form of the second-person pronoun suggests that the speaker is addressing an entity that occupies a higher position in some kind of social hierarchy, which implies that one's relationship to God is mediated by social structures. Use of the singular form was considered more consistent with Protestant theology, which emphasized a direct and individual connection between the believer and their God.

You see the same phenomenon in German, a language that's retained multiple forms of the second person. In German translations of the Bible, and in German prayers, God is addressed as "Du" (the familiar singular "you").

Re:Manners in Early Modern England by groovy2shoes on Thursday August 09, 2018 @11:47AM (#17725209)
> You see the same phenomenon in German, a language that's retained multiple forms of the second person. In German translations of the Bible, and in German prayers, God is addressed as "Du" (the familiar singular "you").

You also see it in the Latin Vulgate, where God is addressed as "tu" (singular), rather than "vos" (plural). My point is that the translation as "thou" was more-or-less a direct translation of the original text in almost all cases, preserving the distictions made in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. At the time those English translations were made, the choice was theologically neutral insofar as the original texts were theologically neutral.