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Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @05:31PM (#17711020)
I think there's a dangerous combination represented by the FPS Russia video with the drone-mounted gun. But instead of going for automatic fire, mount something like a TrackingPoint computerized rifle instead. This combination could be made even more dangerous by emphasizing low noise and observability, perhaps by using ducted propellers and fixed wings. If such a drone were inaudbile from 3000 feet, it could amount to an undetectable assassination machine, requiring rich and powerful people to have a 24/7 team of anti-drone specialists.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-...

EDIT: Before you accuse me of making up fantasy weapons, you'd best read the above link, and the one below. Computer aimed firearms that perform at "sniper in a box" levels actually do exist.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-...

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by littlestymaar on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:42PM (#17711566)
With a drone, what's the point being 1000m away ? You can put a few grams of explosive on a $30 nano-drone and detonate it right on the chest/head of your target. The “Slaughterbots”[1] video gives a good idea of what it could look like.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=191&v=9CO6M2HsoI...

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by bufferoverflow on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:48PM (#17711615)
Cause drones can be jammed/blinded up close. It's much harder to defend from a bullet fired from a kilometer away.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by bigiain on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:28PM (#17712764)
Jamming is easy enough if the drone requires realtime active control, especially if it's on well known frequencies and modulations - but autonomous flight using GPS, 9DOF accelerometers/gyros/magnetometers, and computer vision - is all current hobby-grade reality.

The main reason those are not (yet?) being used for terror attacks is that the skill level required to pull that off is quite high, and the people planning terror attacks seem to find it easier to recruit suicide bombers than geeks.

If any of _these_ guys: http://ardupilot.org/about/team - got "radicalized", I suspect they'd be very difficult to defend against...

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by tokyodude on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:44PM (#17712562)
Is it possible to jam the drones and not also end up jamming your own communications?
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by uabstraction on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:23AM (#17713193)
Yes. In its simplest form, radio jamming is just tramsmitting junk on the same frequency as the target. If you want to jam a couple kids using channel 10 on their FRS radios, all you need to do is put your own radio on that channel, ducttape down the push to talk button, and stick it in front of a laptop playing a 10 hour rick-roll video. Jamming RC aircraft, or GPS, or any other radio service is more or less the same in practice. The only difference is the type of transmitter you need to emit the jamming signal.

Radio jamming can be as broadband or narrow band as you desire. The narrower the band you target, the less power you need. The catch is, 1) you need to know what frequency you are trying to jam, and 2) this is not at all legal, so it would probably only fly in the middle of a warzone.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by lx3459683 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:20PM (#17712721)
Realistically, a home built drone could be using anything for comms, including the civilian mobile networks or wifi band. Coupled with a tracking directional antenna, such a setup would be very difficult to detect or jam.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by discreditable on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:51PM (#17711639)
Action from distance could allow several drones set to fire on a target from different locations and calculate the projectiles to arrive at the same time.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @07:03PM (#17711722)
Yes, and as I noted above, such systems are far less capable than something like a Hellfire missile fired from a Predator drone, so might be preferred to avoid escalation.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by King-Aaron on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @10:15PM (#17712695)
This is actually one of the more terrifying videos out there on this subject.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by rabbitonrails on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:38PM (#17712528)
The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:18PM (#17717163)
The FPS Russia video is a fake video / joke that you apparently failed to get.

Your reading comprehension is poor. I'm only using the image as an icon/illustration to prime the discussion. The actual device I discuss is quite different.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by lostsock on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:11AM (#17713561)
Seems DW.com failed to spot that too...
[dead]
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:47PM (#17711610)
Have you ever shot a gun in real life

Yes. In JROTC.

developed an electromechanical system more complicated than an RC car?

Before arduino was even a thing, I wrote a bit-banging controller for a converting tiltrotor VTOL. (We were using the GPIO of a "Gumstix" micro linux board to produce the PWM signals for something like 6 motors with partial automation to continuously mix the vertical-mode and horizontal modes of control, dependent on wing tilt, so bit-banging a microcontroller was the only way we could do it at the time.) The model tiltrotor project was headed by a friend whose father worked on the actual LTV XC-142, so it was quite complex. The complete tiltrotor never flew, but the "Gumstix" did fly on a delta wing plane.

Because what you just described is a fantasy.

More like fodder for near-future spy thriller Sci-fi, but it is well grounded in reality.

The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range. The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/01/trackingpoint-shows-...

Mounting such a device on a large enough drone should be well within the capability of folks like CIA contractors.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by vonmoltke on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @07:27PM (#17711863)
> The TrackingPoint rifles actually did work, and there is one with an 1800 yard range.

TrackingPoint is attaching a very sophisticated electronics package to an otherwise standard rifle. The 1800yd range is based on a .338 Lapua round. That round requires a pretty hefty platform to remain stable.

> The controller on a Linux system is the thing which actually pulled the trigger, relying on the operator to hold the rifle in the correct orientation. When it calculated there would be a hit, the computer pulled the trigger.

There are two problems with this on a drone:

First, I don't see any information (understandably) about the allowable limits of muzzle motion for TrackingPoint. I suspect the system is tuned to correct the relatively small oscillations the muzzle goes through in the hands of a human shooter. I would love to see the drone platform that could hold a .338 rifle that steady half a mile in the air.

Second, the system calculates the solution at the point of the trigger pull. There is a brief period between trigger pull and the round exiting the barrel where barrel movement can throw the round off. This is fine if the movement is predictable (as it would be for a trained human). I suspect a drone is going to struggle mightily with a .338's recoil.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by nerpderp83 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @08:20PM (#17712159)
Drones can shoot down, drones can shoot up, drones can operate in free fall as easily as powered, they can operate in perigee and apogee, butter side up and butter side down.

Look at the ways the OP is (charitably) correct, picking holes doesn't make it impossible.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @08:17PM (#17712143)
The 1800yd range is based on a .338 Lapua round. That round requires a pretty hefty platform to remain stable.

Yes, I was thinking of something much larger than your typical consumer drone. I wasn't thinking of the little Mavic drone that lands in your hand. I suspect that it would be much smaller than a Predator, however.

I would love to see the drone platform that could hold a .338 rifle that steady half a mile in the air.

I should think there'd be some kind of gimbal involved.

Second, the system calculates the solution at the point of the trigger pull.

If you mean, "around the time the operator pulls the trigger."

This is fine if the movement is predictable (as it would be for a trained human). I suspect a drone is going to struggle mightily with a .338's recoil.

You're telling me that CIA contractors or other engineers couldn't engineer some kind of gimbal that would be more stable than a human operator? Making it lightweight and incorporating it into a drone would be difficult. I don't think it would be impossible or impractical.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by jjeaff on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:53PM (#17712605)
Since we are all cherry picking details (or taking pot shots might be a better phrase)...

A TAC-338 sniper rifle weighs in at a whopping 11lbs. There are off the shelf camera gimbals that can easily hold a 120lbs camera dead still from as far away as you care to film.

I don't think stabilization would be an issue at all for a drone mounted rifle.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by Terr_ on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:01AM (#17713530)
> I should think there'd be some kind of gimbal involved.

Random thought: If the drone can take a moment to set up and snipe from range, what about dropping some ballast down a telescoping pole? It may not help with yaw, but it'd reduce tipping.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by thechao on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @08:16AM (#17715227)
Shoot straight down, instead.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by marcosdumay on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:16PM (#17712962)
> This is fine if the movement is predictable (as it would be for a trained human). I suspect a drone is going to struggle mightily with a .338's recoil.

I was dismissing the OP at first, but you convinced me it's viable. This one detail (that is really the worst I could find) is the kind of thing where neural nets excel.

One would need to fire a few shots on training, but now I think precise targeting (in there being a small enough motor step) is harder to solve than this.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by h4b4n3r0 on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @02:09AM (#17713557)
It only requires that to remain stable if you’d like to quickly fire another shot. Otherwise you can just let the rifle move: the round had left the barrel long ago by the time it moves even a tiny bit.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by kevin_thibedeau on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:56PM (#17712614)
We have recoilless rifles and Gyrojet rocket propelled bullets. It wouldn't take a motivated organization much effort to apply these to a drone to improve stability.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @12:39PM (#17717310)
There are serious challenges to making Gyrojet style rockets as accurate as rifle bullets. These haven't been solved at manufacturing scales, so snipers still use rifles after all these years.

However, there have been demonstrations of a guided 0.50 caliber bullet.

https://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2014-07-10

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by PhasmaFelis on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:24PM (#17712992)
Is there reason to believe that gyrojets could be made practical? I was under the impression that there were fundamental flaws in the concept.

A small-arms-caliber recoilless rifle could work really well on a drone, though.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by Dancecity on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @11:58PM (#17713102)
Gyrojets never took off because of how expensive they are to produce compared to conventional ammo. ($10 vs $0.50) Their only advantages are gun size and recoil.

Micro drone guns might actually be the one use case for gyrojets, because recoil and barrel weight are the most serious issues.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by PhasmaFelis on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @11:07PM (#17721409)
I thought the major issue was that they were extremely vulnerable to being blown off course during the slow-moving launch phase. Basically, that even a mild crosswind would send it irretrievably askew.

I assumed that the price issue could in theory be solved by mass production economies of scale, if the other issues could be sorted out.

Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by 3pt14159 on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:46PM (#17711606)
Yeah, aiming isn't easy. Dropping explosives is though.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by stcredzero on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @06:59PM (#17711690)
True, but putting a bullet in one person is less likely to provoke a certain level of response. Drone bomb attacks are getting a bit too close to full warfare. A big enough drone-bomb is basically a cut-rate, very short-ranged cruise missile.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by Meerax on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @07:57PM (#17712037)
Easy and I believe already being done in Syria. I'll have to find video links but it's not new at this point.
Re:What can defend against off-the-shelf drone weapons? by toomanybeersies on Tuesday August 07, 2018 @09:05PM (#17712363)
Drone bombs became one of the favourite attacks by IS militants during the Battle for Mosul. They are a remarkably effective terror weapon, as unlike car bombs, they aren't stopped by walls or barriers. By all accounts they weren't actually particularly effective at actually causing damage.

They were basically dropping 40mm grenades (the kind used in under-barrel launchers like an M203) with fins attached.

Here's a video released by IS showing them purportedly blowing up a humvee with a grenade dropped from a drone: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-39092883/so-ca...

Here's an article from the BBC with pictures of captured drones: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38663394