Hm. As a woman, I can't say I've ever thought of harassment when men have started friendly conversation with me. Is that not a bit of an exaggeration? If a man catcalled "nice tits" or something, then yeah, that would be harassment. But conversation? Not nearly the risk your describing, I don't think.

I agree with you, but I think people avoid even the possibility//higher risk associated with the awkward start of the conversation.

I work in tech and some of my male coworkers privately tell me that they avoid talking to womens they don't know at networking events or at conferences because of the way it might be interpreted nowadays.

I think there's a difference between initial awkwardness or fear of rejection -- which are totally valid feelings in social interaction, and not just limited to men -- and fear of being accused of harassment for making polite conversation.

I also think that it's easy to get sucked into circle-jerks that promote and exaggerate these fears of being accused of harassment. As long as you're considerate and respectful, no reasonable person would think you're harassing them. There are always unreasonable people, that shouldn't divide us into men vs women, into groups that fear interacting with each other.

Most women would not consider such an ordinary social interaction to be harassment, but suppose a small fraction do - being perceived or accused of harassment is such a negative thing that it can be a strong deterrent even if there's a low chance of it actually happening.

Most men aren't psychopaths, but a small fraction are. Perceiving all men as such even if there's a low chance of it actually happening...

If you're accused of harassment as a guy, that has huge negative social and career effects that are close to impossible to fight. Everybody turns against you and you're ostracized from your community. It's a big deal.

Of course it's a big deal. I never disagreed with that to begin with. Some people understand ostracism. That's why they don't do the things that cause ostracism.

My following reply to ironjunkie is a reply to your comment as well -- I think what you said would be such a shame.

If you find this to be the case, then maybe you’re not being as polite / kind as you think. Because from my experience this simple is not the case. I’ve seen this argument made a few times and it’s pretty rubbish. You are free to talk to anyone of any sex if you treat them kindly, politely and with respect.

The comment was problematic, but please don't react to a problematic comment with full-out ideological snark war. That virus only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: this is the third warning in a few weeks. We ban accounts that continue to post uncivilly after we ask them not to. Please review the guidelines and use this site as intended.

I've said this on here before more or less, but here's the problem for me: If my girlfriend is approached by a man without due cause (such as asking for directions, trying to commission her to work on something, etc.), our immediate reaction is to assume he has sexual intent. The only difference being creepy makes is whether or not it's an assumption or a certainty. I don't like being perceived as though I have sexual intent and I don't get the impression anybody else does either or romantic cat and mouse games wouldn't be as popular as they are. This isn't some hypothetical worst case false accusation thing, it's something real that I know happens because we both do it. And I know why we do it, we do it because 9/10 times if a guy approaches her without due cause he's got sexual intent. When you approach a woman without due cause you join a tiny segment of the population that is 90% horny men, expecting to not get labelled as a horny man is wishful thinking.

Those "9/10 times if a guy approaches her without due cause he's got sexual intent" is a actually just a stereotype which if we actually measure it would shrink down to single digit percent. Male sexuality is commonly over exaggerated and part of the expected gender role, with female sexuality in contrast has the opposite expected gender role. Since no one want to perceive a man as being outside his gender role we attach this assumption of "horny man", in the same way we attach "innocent girl" to a woman. When a man approach a woman both gender roles and expectations are applied and thus we get this perceived situation.

I'm not going by stereotype here, I'm going by my personal experience. Now what probably is happening is I'm confirmation biasing a bit, it probably isn't quite 9/10 but it's enough that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself.

Fully agree with you. I would put it more in the area of 50%, but this is exactly the point I am trying to make.

And as a guy, when you start a conversation with another stranger guy, none of this "Looking and feeling creepy" applies.

Lots of assumptions in your post.

Being a victim here was not claimed at all. The discussion here is related to why people are feeling more lonely. And I believe that the boundaries of socially acceptable man-women interactions (amongst others) really shrunk over the last decades, yes.

I also used to approach women non-stop (as you would put it). I simply do it less nowadays because I'm aware of the higher risks associated with it. This has nothing to do with being a victim. It is a loss for everyone, and simply a shift to more "streamlined" ways to meet people such as "apps" that remove all the surprise and risks from the interaction.

On a side note, Why does this discussions HAS to yet again go to a Feminist vs Trump view of the world.