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Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by zapita on Monday July 30, 2018 @12:53PM (#17645885)
I would argue that, more than anyone else, the US is laying the groundwork for a post-American world order. It has been on that course since the post-9/11 insanity, and the trend has only accelerated since.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by yread on Monday July 30, 2018 @02:19PM (#17646686)
I think people are expecting some grand event and suddenly next minute China is dominating. Of course it's not going to be like that! US overtook UK in GDP per capita in 1860s yet it took another 50 years or more before the dominance became clear and 100 years before it became overwhelming
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by LyndsySimon on Monday July 30, 2018 @02:25PM (#17646729)
As technology increases connections between actors in the global economy, speed of change seems to be increasing as well.

While I agree that the change won’t be a “grand event”, I don’t think it’ll take anywhere near half a century to happen. I expect it’ll happen over a decade or less and will largely be invisible to US consumers until the larger effects of our weakened currency become apparent.

I expect the rise of China as the dominant economy will be rapid and will take most people by surprise - barring, of course, a major downturn in either major economy.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by frockington on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:03PM (#17645991)
As an American I would be happy to see someone else take responsibility. If China thinks they can somehow bring stability to the Middle East then give them a shot. At least when they inevitably descend into chaos again it wont be us having to babysit. I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by astebbin on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:16PM (#17646113)
>I think many Americans are hoping China tries to take a leadership role in Asia and near neighbors

Could you elaborate on this? My impression was that China has recently been bullying its neighbors, particularly Vietnam and to some extent the Philippines, over oil and gas deposits in the South China Sea. I can't imagine that's great for regional stability.

I also wonder if many Americans would want China to take on a leadership role with respect to Taiwan. I doubt the Taiwanese would take such a view.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by Leary on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:29PM (#17646240)
Border tensions is only a minor part of life in Asia, one that is over reported by western media. Trade and infrastructure are more important concerns.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by rando_supreme on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:24PM (#17647680)
I don't mean to call you out... but for an 11 day old account, you seem to have a fair amount of pro China trolling material posted.

Why would border tensions be "over reported." It's a matter of allied sovereignty?

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by simmanian on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:55PM (#17646495)
Could you elaborate? My take is that border tensions are definitely related to trade and it's not taken lightly by any Asian nation.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by jewelthief91 on Monday July 30, 2018 @06:41PM (#17648829)
How do the American people benefit from protecting Vietnam and the Philippines? Not to sound trollish, but I genuinely do not see why spending billions in the region and antagonizing China really helps us.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by astebbin on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @12:34AM (#17650566)
As I understand it, an enormous percentage of global trade sails through the South China Sea. From a pragmatic standpoint, it behooves American interests to support the Vietnamese and Philippine territorial claims so that one nation (China) does not militarily and/or politically dominate such a vital trade route.

From an idealistic standpoint, America supports the notions of state sovereignty and the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea simply out of principle. Like Apple’s stance on customer data privacy, the U.S. government defends freedom as a matter of pragmatism first, and then talks up the altruistic angle :)

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by posting2fast on Monday July 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#17647474)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17644657

> The Uighurs see themselves as a minority facing cultural, religious and economic discrimination. When Xinjiang was incorporated into the People's Republic of China in 1949, they comprised roughly 80 percent of the region's population. Controlled migration to Xinjiang of Han Chinese has reduced this share to 45 percent

[..]

> Anyone with a potentially suspicious data trail can be detained. The government has built up a grid of hundreds of re-education camps. Tens of thousands of people have disappeared into them in recent months. Zenz estimates the number to be closer to hundreds of thousands. More precise figures are difficult to obtain. Censorship in Xinjiang is the strictest in China and its authorities the most inscrutable.

[..]

> Normal journalistic research in Kashgar is inconceivable. No one wants to talk. A Uighur human rights activist who met up with us four years ago didn't respond to a single one of our text messages. His phone number is no longer listed. As we later learned, he disappeared months ago. But whether he was thrown into a re-education camp or prison is unknown.

[..]

> Every family begins with 100 points, one person affected by the system tells us. But anyone with contacts or relatives abroad, especially in Islamic countries like Turkey, Egypt or Malaysia, is punished by losing points. A person with fewer than 60 points is in danger. One wrong word, a prayer or one telephone call too many and they could be sent to "school" in no time.

Bring "stability" to the Middle East?

What the US did and does in the Middle East is not something any other nation can solve for them; bring those who waged wars of aggression to justice, show genuine good will towards those you mistreated, that's something any nation owes either way (it's not like many European nations don't have a lot to make up for, for example). You're responsible for not making it worse, and owning your shit. That's not just what "number one" must do, even the smallest must do it. Others are responsible for sorting out their mess. You don't have to bring peace to the Middle East, just not more war. You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by candiodari on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @09:54AM (#17653105)
> You don't have to bring democracy to China, just don't look the other way or even help rationalize and justify it.

And isn't that exactly what most nations are doing ? Especially European countries and the EU, and more so as time goes on.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by posting2fast on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @10:58AM (#17653668)
I'm not talking to nations. I'm talking to persons.
[dead]
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by dang on Monday July 30, 2018 @10:20PM (#17650056)
Nationalistic flamewar will get your account banned here. Can you please not post like this to HN? You did it elsewhere recently as well, which is a problem.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by grezql on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @10:32AM (#17653443)
fine
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by Leary on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:31PM (#17646263)
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by hupe_ on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:43PM (#17646368)
This us VS them mentality, amplified/reinforced by social media, 24*7 news, celebs, politicians et al is doing the most unnecessary damage.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by grezql on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:42PM (#17647834)
who do you mean by 'us'? I was born in one of the asian countries China is trying to influence with its cheap plastic copies. Everything they touch there is ruined.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by jbrun on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:13PM (#17646087)
Of course. Empires collapse from within.
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by FLUX-YOU on Monday July 30, 2018 @01:09PM (#17646047)
Not sure I agree 9/11 was when it started. We were still cooperating with allies and other countries and still maintaining non-war stuff.

Trump is when the bridge burning started and when America really lost its stature on the world stage. If it was declining since 9/11, trump took that gradual trend and sent it straight down.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by merpnderp on Monday July 30, 2018 @02:52PM (#17646953)
Exactly the same sort of FUD was stated when Bush was president. Trump is strengthening NATO, is in the process of renegotiating several trade treaties which appear to be well received by all sides, and has made some unprecedented progress with N. Korea, while building a coalition of Arab states to counter Iran and Russia in the Middle East, plus putting pressure on Europe to lessen their dependance on Russian energy.

I'm sure I'll be down voted for stating facts, but that's just the times - people hate facts.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by rando_supreme on Monday July 30, 2018 @04:19PM (#17647631)
At the risk of falling for troll bait, I'll ask anyways.

What measurable metrics are you examining to come to the conclusion that Trump has had a net positive effect? Can you please point me to any primary source document in the EU parlament which outlines legislative action leading to growth in NATO? Who is our diplomatic negotiator in these talks? Do we have any commitment on any level?

On the subject of trade, can you please point me to any primary source document that suggests we're getting a better deal? What exports are suffering, and how does current administration policy balance the deficit, increase the quality of life for the American people, or benefit our trading partners. Who has received the current administration's policy "well?"

What tangible commitments has N Korea made towards a peace process? Sohae Satalite Launch was not used for years, and the only thing torn down was a rocket engine burn pad (trivial to setup again, but I'm not an airspace engineer. ).

What new Arab state coalition exists under Trump that didn't exist under Bush or Clinton?

How has Trump's summit meeting with Putin, or his actions since illustrated a clear international policy on Syria? How has the EU been forced to make any energy policy changes in the past 2 years?

You've made some interesting claims, and I'd be happy to hear you support them. However, that which can be claimed without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by merpnderp on Monday July 30, 2018 @05:55PM (#17648466)
Well, France and Germany have both acknowledged their NATO spending deficits and have pledged to increase them, with France actually signing legislation and Germany saying they improve their stance (hard to say no when at the time of the NATO summit they had 0 operational fighter jets): https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/08/france-germany-i...

As for trade, negotiations are obviously ongoing, but it's only been a few week, but certainly seems to be going in a good direction: https://www.vox.com/2018/7/25/17614564/trump-eu-trade-deal-j...

As for N. Korea, their latest peace negotiations have gone further than ever before. US soldier's remains have been returned, political prisoners were returned, the very first peace summit directly between a US president and a N. Korean leader, and end to missile and nuclear testing for going on a year. You can knock these, but it is hard to see how they aren't major achievements only belittled by ideology.

As for the middle-east why would we not count a strengthening of a coalition, just because it existed before? I pointed out that negotiations are being made when the parent would have you believe things were getting worse instead of working plan for better. They certainly aren't "burned bridges".

I didn't mention Syria for a reason. That is clearly lost to Assad and Russia. Not sure what Trump could have done differently except immediately pull out and cede the loss.

And you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Europe had changed their energy policy, only after the NATO and trade summits, they have agreed to take US LNG in an effort to reduce their reliance on Russian nat-gas, and at least formally acknowledged their reliance is a bad thing.

Why didn't you ask the parent to source and explain their statements? What did they state which was obvious?

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by FLUX-YOU on Monday July 30, 2018 @07:57PM (#17649360)
Things are way too early to call on North Korea. I saw this today: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-sp...
Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by merpnderp on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @09:19AM (#17652881)
I saw that too :( Still, Trump has gotten further than any president before him.

My whole point was this “burning bridges” and general miasma around Trump’s foreign policy is the result of ideology and hysteria instead of hard nosed observation of facts.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by FLUX-YOU on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @01:42PM (#17655248)
>My whole point was this “burning bridges” and general miasma around Trump’s foreign policy is the result of ideology and hysteria instead of hard nosed observation of facts.

Part of the "stature" involves how he publicly treats officials from other countries and how he presents himself to the world.

This is what led Angela Merkel (and other world leaders) to repeatedly denounce Trump. Theresa May almost laughed when Trump suggested that she sue the EU and it's by far not the most stupid thing he's said.

No president does 100% bad things, but the problem is that with every success that he does have, he can't articulate it well because 30% of his vocabulary solely consists of the word 'very'. His reading and speaking level are barely above middle school. The only reason he's resorted to doing unpredictable, mad dog politics is that he isn't capable of doing anything else -- not because it's a good method of politics these days.

Does that get you things like trade deals because no one knows how you'll react? Sure, at the cost of reputation down the line.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by merpnderp on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @04:21PM (#17656739)
This certainly seems like a cultural divide in America. Some people would prefer someone less effective, but whom was polite and proper. Others don't care about polite and proper as long as they are effective.

Some people didn't care that Trump called Jong-Un "rocketman" if it meant positive results. Others were horrified that Trump would ridicule a world leader in such a childish manner, even if it did lead to by far the best results of any president in the history of N. Korea/US relations.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 30, 2018 @03:53PM (#17647434)
Trump is "strengthening NATO" by telling the other members to pull their own weight, or the US will walk away. That may in fact strengthen NATO, if the other members do what Trump wants them to. If they don't, though, it could destroy NATO.

My impression is that Trump is negotiating completely differently than any previous US president. He's throwing extreme positions out there as a starting point, then trying to negotiate back to something reasonable. (Much of the outrage in the press is directed at his opening statements - both content and style - not at the end position.) This approach may work, if others adjust to his style. But international diplomacy is not like business negotiations, and he may wind up alienating countries that he really needs to keep as friends.

Re:China is laying the groundwork for a post-American world ... by bbstevecou on Monday July 30, 2018 @03:59PM (#17647481)
He's merely negotiating from a position of power; US has the biggest GDP of any country. and has the largest consumer market (12T) vs EU (9T). No country is stupid enough to not want access to this market - they might be upset for concessions. But to walk away? no way.