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Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by userbinator on Saturday July 28, 2018 @12:47PM (#17633878)
Summed up in one word: Scary.

Maybe Apple users are not as concerned about being able to run other OSs, but there was a huge uproar a few years ago when secure boot was first introduced to PCs. Fortunately you can still turn it off, but its removal may be associated with an ostensibly compelling argument: "why would you not want security?" The answer to that can also be summed up in one word: freedom.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by munchbunny on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:04PM (#17634231)
As long as secure boot is optional, I think having the ability to use it is a good thing.

As an individual, the freedom to install whatever OS you want is important.

As a company, you want to have the option to bootstrap the software from a cryptographically signed image so that group policies, etc. can all be enforced in one long, auditable chain starting from the onboard TPM. While most employees might not need that, something like that is useful for making sure remote datacenter access is secure.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by bad_user on Sunday July 29, 2018 @01:20AM (#17636637)
I worked for a big company with an IT department that was forcing strict policies on everybody. E.g. installing Skype could get you fired. But the developers working on projects for that company basically ignored the rules, because it was the only way to get anything done.

Not saying that there aren't companies for which this is desirable. Such companies exist. What I am saying is that their reasoning is bullshit and has more to do with some people keeping their jobs, so it's job security instead of actual security.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by munchbunny on Sunday July 29, 2018 @05:04PM (#17640267)
I think we're talking about slightly different things.

I'm a proponent of proportional amounts of paranoia. Restricting everyone is disproportional. Preventing developers from installing software on their dev boxes probably does more harm than good.

On the other hand, putting tight controls on computers people use for admin access to servers is not a bad idea if your company is big enough that only the dev ops guys really need to be in there with real regularity, or if your company handles sensitive data. Then the practical layer of security might be worthwhile to make getting into the datacenter via a compromised engineer or dev box harder.

That's the scenario I'm familiar with: secure boot on a separate machine, and a tight lid on what software you can put on the system, in order to guarantee a baseline level of hygiene for any system that talks directly with the datacenter.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by shaabanban on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:02PM (#17633947)
I don't know if this crosses the line into scary for me simply due to the fact that it can be turned off. Based on what I just read nothing would stop me from switching to the "No Security" mode and installing whatever I want.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by darpa_escapee on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:18PM (#17634290)
We can look at phones and tablets, where bootloaders are locked down, to see that there is an interest in making sure that the secure bit doesn't get flipped by the user in the name of "security".

There's an incentive to disallow unauthorized software from running on your hardware platform: it forces users to go through approved channels for their software and data. If you own an App Store and services like iTunes, the financial incentives exist to ensure your users don't sideload content or use competing app/media markets.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by userbinator on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:07PM (#17633971)
Based on what I just read nothing would stop me from switching to the "No Security" mode and installing whatever I want.

...for now. The frog boils very slowly.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by beagle3 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:11PM (#17634266)
Everything is possible, of course, but Apple makes money from selling hardware, not from selling an OS; They're likely to keep letting you run what you want (which is in their interest so you don't buy hardware from another vendor even if you want to run Windows or Linux) -- although they might condition warranty and service on your computer running a blessed, signed and secure OS/X.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by bad_user on Sunday July 29, 2018 @01:27AM (#17636665)
> Apple makes money from selling hardware, not from selling an OS

This reasoning is overused and wrong.

Apple's hardware is no good for other operating systems, it doesn't run well with either Linux or Windows, the support being shitty due to Apple's proprietary stuff. As an example the experience with the touchpad becomes much poorer and the battery life is reduced to about half.

Running Windows or Linux well puts Apple in the commodity hardware market and that's what they tried to avoid ever since Steve Jobs came back.

So as a matter of fact they do sell MacOS as a core part of the package and they don't intend for it to be replaceable. Just like they sell iOS. It's not like you can install another operating system on their iPhones and iPads. Those devices don't even belong to consumers that bought them actually. All you're getting is a license to use them.

Apple is definitely not in the hardware business. What they sell is licenses.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by beagle3 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @03:28AM (#17636974)
> So as a matter of fact they do sell MacOS as a core part of the package and they don't intend for it to be replaceable.

Ahhm. BootCamp[0] is an integral part of MacOS for a while. (and before that, for a couple of years, it was a free add-on). It is the apple mandated, supported, sanctioned way to run Windows on a Mac, including needed drivers. Battery life is not quite as good, true.

Your claim that "Apple is definitely not in the hardware business. What they sell is licenses." is contradicted, both by the existence of BootCamp, and by your inability to buy a license without the hardware (and/or at a price that does not include a profit premium on that hardware).

[0] https://support.apple.com/boot-camp

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by bad_user on Sunday July 29, 2018 @07:41AM (#17637614)
That you cannot buy a license to MacOS is actually proof for my claims. Another fact is that you cannot run MacOS on non-Apple hardware.

And Bootcamp is nothing more than smoke and mirrors, a checkbox to tick in order for apologists to have amo.

Having used Windows on a MacBook Pro 2016 for two years, my experience has been worse than with a commodity Levono at 1/4 the price.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by aspenmayer on Thursday August 02, 2018 @01:23AM (#17669379)
>That you cannot buy a license to MacOS is actually proof for my claims. Another fact is that you cannot run MacOS on non-Apple hardware.

Given that you were running Windows on your Mac, I gather that your argument is more one related to the licensing issues of running macOS on non-Apple hardware, rather than an argument that it isn't technically possible. In any case, there is this. Curious how the project will be impacted by these new changes. From the article, it seems that in No Security mode the bootloader may be modifiable in the ways that it needs to be for modifications like Clover to work.

Clover EFI bootloader https://sourceforge.net/projects/cloverefiboot/

Features

Boot OS X, Windows, and Linux in UEFI or legacy mode on Mac or PC with UEFI or BIOS firmware

Boot using UEFI firmware directly or CloverEFI UEFI firmware emulation

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by beagle3 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @08:21AM (#17637755)
I last used boot camp in 2012, and it was fine; buying a MacBook for the purpose of running windows is ... uneconomical, at best. But it does work.

However, could you elaborate on why the fact that you cannot buy an OSX license proves your point that Apple is in the business of selling licenses? I am at loss.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by darpa_escapee on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:20PM (#17634295)
People still buy iPhones and iPads despite the hardware platform lockdown.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by GW150914 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:29PM (#17634342)
In many cases they buy it because it’s a walled garden and locked down. When the alternative is Android it’s not hard to see why. People here seem to miss that while some people want freedom to experiment and play, others want the freedom to just have the device work as intended and not have to worry about fraudulent or malicious apps.

It would be weird if a dev preferred the lockdown, and weirder still if my grandmother didn’t.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by scarface74 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @12:47AM (#17636561)
I’m a Dev and my phone is not my computer. I want a device that “just works” where I can download any random app with abandon and have some type of assurance that an app can’t do crazy things.

I am much more careful about what gets downloaded on my computer but I want to be able to do anything.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by jsjohnst on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:28PM (#17634864)
> It would be weird if a dev preferred the lockdown

I’m a Dev and I prefer the lockdown, on my daily driver device that is. If it was forced on every device, I’d be opposed, but having it be something I can opt out of on my dev devices is perfect IMHO.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by dwb on Saturday July 28, 2018 @05:08PM (#17635064)
I'm also a dev and I prefer the lockdown. There's plenty of other computing equipment that is not locked down, and the restrictions only really apply to a tiny amount of use-cases. For instance, I would have had no trouble learning to code if I was growing up now on a modern Macbook – or even an iPad. (In fact it would be loads better than QuickBASIC. I am so envious of techie kids now.)
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by userbinator on Saturday July 28, 2018 @03:32PM (#17634585)
Those serve very different use-cases and were locked-down from the start, unlike Apple's early desktops and laptops (with the notable exception of the Lisa) which, while still not as open as the PC, were comparable, especially when they switched to standard PC architecture a little over a decade ago.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by debatem1 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:51PM (#17634993)
Freedom and secure boot are not mutually exclusive things. The important bit is the ability to enroll your own signing key. See the yellow state in this diagram: https://source.android.com/security/verifiedboot/verified-bo...

Disclaimer: I worked on this.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by saagarjha on Saturday July 28, 2018 @08:32PM (#17635825)
> The important bit is the ability to enroll your own signing key.

…which I don't believe Apple has opened up? Right now it's use Apple's keys for verification, or don't use the feature at all.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by debatem1 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @04:11PM (#17640015)
No idea, I didn't work on Apple's version.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by 0x0 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:05PM (#17634747)
As long as the option to use secure booting stays user-configurable (even if it's opt-out), this sounds like a great way to for example do theft deterrent - if you can mark a specific macbook's serial number as stolen, and thus preventing internet recovery or reinstalls from external media, just like you can with iOS devices today via Find My iPhone, where Apple may deny granting a re-installation AP-ticket for the device's serial number, all the better.

If word gets out to every shady character that stolen macbooks are effectively bricks, perfect.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by craftyguy on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:28PM (#17634072)
Eh. Most (all?) x86 systems with secure boot support loading your own keys for signing/verification. All systems I have that support secure boot are using my own keys to verify the linux kernel before loading it.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by beagle3 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:13PM (#17634274)
I have a lot of no-name black "beige boxes" at work, and not a single one of them supports loading your own keys.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by gmueckl on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:08PM (#17634770)
Microsoft does not require the key loading for its windows 10 compatibility certification. So firmware like this is the result (intentional or not).
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by geofft on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:24PM (#17634319)
It is absolutely scary to me that "my" computer could be running some OS that I don't want it to run. I have no freedom if someone else controls my OS. That's why I run free-software operating systems with secure boot enabled.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by frostburg on Saturday July 28, 2018 @03:43PM (#17634644)
Are you aware of the fact that your computer runs a lot of scary code that you can't see anyway? Do you audit the firmware of your drives?
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by geofft on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:48PM (#17634976)
I am absurdly aware of this. I am also absurdly aware that most free software isn't audited, either, and is full of unintentional security vulnerabilities more exploitable than anything going on with my proprietary firmware. Nonetheless, I believe in incremental improvements.

(Note that untrustworthy drive firmware has an easy workaround at least in theory - just do full-disk authenticated encryption, and then the drive can't do anything worse than DoS you, which is sort of a thing drives tend to do on their own anyway.)

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by riquito on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:03PM (#17634734)
You don't need to verify everything yourself, when the code is open you can trust one or more third party auditing
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by scarface74 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @12:50AM (#17636572)
How did that work out for the HeartBleed bug that was in Open source code for a year?
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by zeusk on Saturday July 28, 2018 @05:18PM (#17635110)
and since when were device firmwares "open" or audited by a "trustworthy" and "competitive" party?

I work on OneCore (Windows) and sometimes I have trouble believing the kind of crap some hardware vendors ship as firmware.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by scarface74 on Sunday July 29, 2018 @12:49AM (#17636566)
So have you personally audited every line of code that runs on your computer? What about the firmware?
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by noja on Saturday July 28, 2018 @12:57PM (#17633930)
I don't know why you are being downvoted: losing the ability to install what we want on our computers is clearly A Bad Thing.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by epistasis on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:03PM (#17633956)
I don't understand what either of your comments have to do with the article. You seem to be assuming some counterfactual implementation of the feature, but the article is quite explicit that these fears are unfounded. There is no loss of the ability to install what you want.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by IntelMiner on Sunday July 29, 2018 @01:07AM (#17636613)
It puts mechanisms in place to deny that in future, however
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by craftyguy on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:28PM (#17634074)
Because it's not accurate. You can install whatever you want on a system with secure boot.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by akvadrako on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:01PM (#17633945)
This is not that - you can still turn it off and boot whatever OS you want.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by sanlyx on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:04PM (#17633958)
And so can anyone with physical access to the device. I know there's no way to fully prevent evil maid attacks, but Secure Boot helps in that no one can simply plug e.g. a Linux Live USB and wipe my disks in less than 3 minutes
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by rocqua on Saturday July 28, 2018 @04:27PM (#17634863)
Really, that should not be possible with secure boot. Secure boot ensures only trusted OSes are run, and those OSes should require authorization before allowing secure boot to be turned off. Scarier evil maid attacks involve changing hardware or firmware. The personalized version of secure boot mentioned would make that more difficult.

Incidentally, an interesting defense against evil maid attacks involves glitter nail polish. Use it on a sticker over the case and take a photo. To verify your laptop is safe, compare the sticker with the photo. The key is that glitter polish has a lot of minute detail and is thus hard to replicate.

This only gives tamper protection, but evil maid attacks require interaction so it suffices for security.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by zzzcpan on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:21PM (#17634033)
Booting into linux from usb and wiping your disk in 3 minutes is not a real threat. It's not even a hypothetical threat. Why not just steal the thing instead or physically destroy it if you want to wipe the disk for some reason? And what reason would that even be, why would anyone want to wipe the disk given physical access? As losing data is something we already expect from mere hardware failures, software failures, operational mistakes, etc., no attackers necessary.

So, no, the whole secure boot thing is just bullshit security theater and more lock in.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by _jal on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:39PM (#17634124)
Digression alert: I'm not talking about MBP-related stuff at all.

> So, no, the whole secure boot thing is just bullshit security theater and more lock in.

Only if you're only thinking about laptops, desktops, maybe phones and tablets. There are lots of types of machines out there physically exposed to users whom the machine-owners trust to varying degrees, ranging from "not at all" on up.

Think UPS package scanners, HVAC systems, various control systems in everything from warehouses to prisons, sensors and signage controls...

Now, Secure Boot doesn't address anywhere near anything close to "sufficient" in any of those environments, but it is one component of raising the costs of attacking them to a point to make the systems economically viable, or at least apparently so.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by 21 on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:09PM (#17634251)
Against the evil maid you are supposed to use SecureBoot together with full disk encryption and TPM.

If someone disables SecureBoot, then the encryption keys become inaccessible and you will notice that something is wrong.

I don't quite understand your wipe the disk thing, since that will leave a trace, the attacker could just smash your computer or take out your drives.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by saagarjha on Saturday July 28, 2018 @08:36PM (#17635834)
Wiping a disk is not a security threat; I can do that from the recovery OS without booting into Linux. What is a security threat is modifying the operating system to contain a backdoor so that it can read from your hard drive when you unwittingly enter your password to unlock the disk.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by Klathmon on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:09PM (#17633981)
Don't most bios have a password protect option? That alone makes evil maid attacks significantly harder.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by sanlyx on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:16PM (#17634012)
That's the way to go I guess. But secure boot has obvious advantages in comparison. As a rule of thumb I do not trust any client-side "authentication" or passphrase input as long as there's no crypto involved. In legacy BIOS this passphrase can be bypassed easily, for instance
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by Klathmon on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:26PM (#17634066)
Yes, but it's not either-or, both can be used.

Combined with a TPU that wipes keys when secure boot is enabled/disabled gives a pretty secure system, that still allows you to "eject" to an unsigned boot when needed.

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by sanlyx on Saturday July 28, 2018 @01:01PM (#17633944)
In most Secure Boot-enabled PCs you can manage keys and certificates on the firmware KEK/DB variables by using utilities such as KeyTool, so that you can safely boot any EFI-compliant OS with a custom certificate.

I'm not sure how this would work on Apple devices. It seems to me they have reinvented the whole security infrastructure of their services, which it's not a bad thing, but also requires some serious hacking if you don't want your device locked down with Apple-only software. Is there any way you could possibly manage the trust chain of secure boot on devices with the T2?

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by floatboth on Saturday July 28, 2018 @02:07PM (#17634239)
> some serious hacking

I guess "Reboot into Recovery, Open the Secure Startup Utility and allow booting from external media and Set it to No Security" counts as serious hacking now :)

Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by the_why_of_y on Sunday July 29, 2018 @10:57AM (#17638448)
That simply disables Secure Boot, which is not what sanlyx wants because you don't get the security benefit of replacing the manufacturer provided PK and/or KEK with your own so that only images you signed will boot.
Re:Secure Boot and the 2018 MacBook Pro by floatboth on Monday July 30, 2018 @06:41AM (#17643465)
Sure, you don't get your own secure boot, but the point is, it's not "omg apple lockdown no third party OS possible at all"