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Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by adreamingsoul on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:08AM (#17541329)
In economic terms, how is this sustainable?
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by fps_doug on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:17AM (#17541398)
It absolutely isn't. The funny part is, for the past 12+ years voices predicting an economic collapse of China have gotten stronger and stronger, but it just doesn't happen. Every time they passed some magic number in some statistic it was all "zomg collapse is imminent!"

I guess with a government like they have you have greater possibilities to cover up and postpone the effects, but who knows how this will manifest. I'm hesitant to believe any current scenarios painted by western "experts" because they have basically been wrong for the past decade, but every time they're like "but this time it's for real!"

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by dnomad on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:38AM (#17541585)
Eh it's absolutely sustainable. China is a monetary sovereign. All of this debt is issued in a currency that they can literally create out of thin air. There is zero possiblity that China will default on this debt. And China has been very careful to avoid externally denominated debt.

The only real risk here currency revulsion. At some point there is a risk that nobody will want the currency. But the risk of internal revulsion is low. Chinese citizens have to pay taxes and many other kinds of fees and fines in the currency. They have no choice. External revulsion is a threat but here again the Chinese have opted to buy out their external dependencies. This is why China wants to own all that farmland in Brazil. It never wants to find itself in a situation where it must buy dollars in order to buy soybeans and other critical food stuffs.

People will go on and on about China's sovereign debt. They just don't get it. This is basic MMT (modern monetary theory). The bigger risk for China is that they grow too slowly not that they grow too fast.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by frogpelt on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:51AM (#17541711)
Creating currency out of thin air also creates inflation.

Inflation must be kept in check or bad things happen.

Maybe the current levels are sustainable. But not all increases in deficit are sustainable.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by dnomad on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:13AM (#17541899)
That's now how any of this works. That's certainly not how inflation works.

At some point, particularly given the last 40 years of evidence to the contrary, people need to simply accept that monetary expansion does not "cause" inflation [1]. Inflation is not a monetary phenomenon at all. Inflation is a price level [2] phenomenon largely driven by trade imbalances. Inflation is about market power, or what some call pricing power. The common case here, btw, is when your external partners from whom you need to import critical goods get even a little bit pricing power then you will get inflation. China is seeking to own all its externals and deliberately suppress any such pricing power not driven by its own banks.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-22/the-great...

[2] http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=10554

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by AnimalMuppet on Monday July 16, 2018 @03:56PM (#17544546)
If there's more money, and the more money circulates, and the velocity doesn't change, and the real economy doesn't grow (that is, more stuff is not being produced), then what possibility is left but inflation? Or, in your theory, which of the "outs" that I stated is the one that you think is operating in the real world?

From where I sit, the past 40 year have shown that, if you grow the money supply only a little bit faster than the real economy grows, then you only get a little bit of inflation.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by DenisM on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:00AM (#17541789)
There is still risk of hyper-inflation though.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by microdrum on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:22AM (#17541980)
"monetary sovereign"

It still requires them to get many other rich countries to generally buy into their story.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by vkou on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:52PM (#17542763)
As long as you keep buying cheap (And a few expensive) things made in China, you're buying into the story.

Where do you think your iPhone is built?

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by microdrum on Monday July 16, 2018 @09:46PM (#17546682)
Not rich countries' consumers; rich countries' governments, economists, and academics.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by vkou on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:17PM (#17546808)
What does their belief or disbelief have to do with whether or not China is a monetary sovereign?

I mean, I suppose they can all imagine that spherical cows exist, but wishing won't make it so.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by seanmcdirmid on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:14AM (#17541905)
Nobody with any credibility has predicted collapse. Recession or crash, yes, but not collapse. China is subject to economic cycles just like every other country is.

The “they keep predicting economic collapse” is a huge red herring used by pro Chinese media to discredit western media who never made such claims out of a few fringe elements like Gordon Chang.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by moomin on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:19AM (#17541407)
Broadly, constant borrowing is sustainable, just look at any European economy. As long as your tax base grows faster than your interest payments there’s no unavoidable problem.

This? It’s not sustainable. Sooner or later this will result in a correction. This could range from aggressive budgetary measures, an internal crisis all the way to China monetising its overseas investments (which are extremely extensive).

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by repolfx on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:32AM (#17541519)
European economies are hardly poster children for constant borrowing. Most of them have been in enforced austerity for years, and have only managed to avoid much tighter spending cuts because the ECB is funding governments through vast amounts of money printing (which boils down to confiscation of savings). Result: huge government spending overruns, ever-falling savings rates.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by moomin on Monday July 16, 2018 @02:55PM (#17543922)
Erm... Spain and Greece has been in enforced austerity, no other countries I can think of. And neither have had typical, responsible borrowing patterns. (Nor does Italy, but it’s dodged that bullet.)

(Ireland had some problems just after the crunch but a) entirely because they took on a bank they could have let fail and b) they’ve paid that off now.)

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by repolfx on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @04:19AM (#17548152)
Portugal, the UK, Italy to some extent (though nowhere near the level they need). Europe is basically a continent of governments trying to cut their spending levels, some with more success than others.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by moomin on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @11:52AM (#17559465)
The UK isn't in enforced austerity. Austerity is a political choice here (driven by a desire to eliminate the deficit), and a pretty bad one (the IMF said we should be spending more, also it looks like we will be irrespective of what the public wants soon because of Brexit). Basically, whilst the UK's economic woes are self-inflicted, over-borrowing isn't the cause of them. Italy definitely has over-borrowed, but its problems go way deeper than that and I wouldn't describe its spending right now as "austerity". Portugal, like Ireland, has already dug itself out of the hole.

Going back to my original point: if increasing your revenue faster than increasing your interest payments, you can do this forever. Sure, the credit crunch gave some countries a shock, but you really should read up on exactly how egregious the Greek borrowing situation was. It was insanely unsustainable. Germany, Denmark, Sweden, France, Slovenia? They'll be fine.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by RobertoG on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:53AM (#17541731)
You can't compare the Euro countries to China because the European countries are borrowing in what, in essence, is a foreign currency. For those countries, constant increasing of the debt is hardly sustainable.

China has not that problem. The only danger for China is inflation (that can be controlled with, for instance, taxes), otherwise, the People's Bank of China can buy directly the debt and nothing would happen. In fact, they could just stop emitting debt, but that would be inconvenient for banks and other big investors.

Private and local government debts is a different issue.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by gonvaled on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:10AM (#17541870)
A foreign currency, controlled by a foe.

The EU should do everything in its power to end the unfair dollar hegemony.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by RobertoG on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:15AM (#17541919)
I was talking about the Euro, not the Dollar.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by MLR on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:19AM (#17541408)
China is (officially) growing at ~7% per year right now, so adding $700 billion to their debt pile barely changes the debt/GDP ratio, it might even still fall but I'd have to check the exact figures.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by seanmcdirmid on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:16AM (#17541940)
The official reported rate is less than 7%, the actual rate is probably 5-6%. But the problem is the growth of debt, not its absolute value. They most definitely have to hit the brake on growth sometime soon, or they are screwed. Even the Chinese governmebt states this, we are only debating the consequences of hitting the brakes, not whether it will happen or not.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by tonyedgecombe on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:34AM (#17541553)
Does anybody believe that growth rate anymore?
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by vkou on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:53PM (#17542770)
Anybody who has actually been to China in 1998, 2008, and 2018 would.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by gruez on Monday July 16, 2018 @01:35PM (#17543131)
All that will tell you is "china grew a lot". It won't tell you whether they grew 10%/year or 8%/year.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by vkou on Monday July 16, 2018 @01:59PM (#17543414)
No, but it'll pretty definitively tell you that they are not 10x off published GDP numbers.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by Four_Star on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:36AM (#17541567)
Nobody
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by crdoconnor on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:33AM (#17541538)
If a government prints its own currency there's not even a theoretical limit to the total amount it can borrow.

There is a limit to the total rate of government spending - spending beyond the rate of the economy's ability to produce - which causes hyperinflation. That is unrelated to the deficit though (theoretically it could even happen in surplus e.g. if you destroyed all your factories and farms).

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by tempodox on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:24AM (#17541449)
It doesn't have to. It only has to hold while the current elite is around.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by alexdrans on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:15AM (#17541376)
Endure the bubble, until you can conquer Australia and relieve the pressure
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by ggm on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:18AM (#17541403)
Why conquer when you can invest? They're investing. It's working. We're happy to have chinese investment in all spaces, ag, and mining, we buy the goods and we sell the dairy produce.

The real threat is Tasmania: haven't you seen the wargames maps? We need those US-Chinese troops to fight back against the daemon armies from cradle mountain.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by alexdrans on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:19AM (#17541405)
Investment doesn't buy you all the 'Living Space' you may want
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by ggm on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:25AM (#17541457)
I've taken the train across china from Hangzhou to Beijing and there is no lack of living space, or empty housing from the speculative bubble. The threat of south-irian is basically the classic yellow-peril threat model.

Its a really bad argument. As long as we are happy to export tertiary education and then proffer immigration channels, there is no basis to argue the Chinese polity wants to invade: it can get people here legally, for good benefit both sides.

Pleae, don't feed the racist troll. The chinese are not swamping us and they cannot cause earthquakes by jumping up and down at the same time.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by smacktoward on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:44AM (#17541638)
> I've taken the train across china from Hangzhou to Beijing and there is no lack of living space, or empty housing from the speculative bubble.

The point of the parent's reference isn't to a lack of actual space, it's to Germany's complaint in the 1930s of not having enough Lebensraum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

... which was similarly spurious -- the Germans had plenty of room for their population too. Lebensraum wasn't about actual space, it was about imperalism, about the Germans feeling strong enough to grab territory from their neighbors just because they could. One could be forgiven for looking at China's military expansionism in the South China Sea, for instance, and thinking the Chinese polity is feeling the same way.

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by ggm on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:23AM (#17541988)
Specious though the south china sea argument feels to us, Its entirely consistent with a long held vision of China and its sphere of influence. What rankles, is the extent to which the opposition to it, the open-seas sailing policy, is being taken by actors (the US, Australia) who chose otherwise to disregard mediation and international law in matters of their own spheres of influence: East Timor for instance. This is not whataboutism, its directly relevant, contradictory behaviour. The Chinese have a long standing stated claim to the spratleys (which btw, I think is entirely bogus) but in no sense simply emerged into a state of claiming them in recent times. The laws being used to push back, are entirely a product of the post-WWII polity, were an attempt to construct a legal mechanism to mediate between states, which is being (forcefully) applied here by some states, who choose to disregard the same legal basis when applied to cases of their own.

Lebensraum was a manufactured need of political expediency and an explicitly expansionist act. The South China Sea is not lebensraum, its open-fishing rights, and over-flight and sailing rights, and mineral rights. It's also a vision of a defensive ring.

You know, that domino theory we used to be sold about chinese expansionist policy in S.E. Asia? its being played in reverse: they need this barrier, because we are trying to re-apply opium war logic to opening chinese capital investment markets, and land in China...

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by bryanlarsen on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:26AM (#17541464)
They don't need space, they're rapidly creating tons of it in China -- people who move from the country to the city use far less area.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by mlthoughts2018 on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:20AM (#17541421)
Then they'll get 2 additional armies every single turn! And a territory card!
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by navaati on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:28AM (#17541488)
What is the reference here ? Is it the same reference as neighbour comment about Tasmania and daemon armies ?
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by ggm on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:30AM (#17541505)
My tasmania comment is about what the US-AU army wargames used to use as the hypothetical invader. they were briefly stupid and used a map of indonesia because of jokes about west irianjaya and 'south iriyan' -and then changed to use the map of tasmania (which btw, is a euphemism for female pubic hair) upside down as the notional invader.

the other reference is to turn-by-turn games of war on maps (I think)

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by danielvf on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:05AM (#17541837)
The cards reference is to the game of RISK. Owning every territory in the “Australian Content” gets the player a small bonus.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by Chilinot on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:37AM (#17541578)
The board game Risk.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by ttoinou on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:34AM (#17541542)
RISK game
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by swfsql on Monday July 16, 2018 @11:02AM (#17541811)
It's sustainable because they keep the money printing press running, which implies they force citizens to sustain (pay for) it.

Even in the US, "lowering the printing speed, which is high", is considered a ""tightening""

Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by jdmichal on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:15AM (#17541379)
Debt is a fixed number that doesn't expand as the economy does.
Re:The Chinese Government Likely Borrowed More than the US i... by inetknght on Monday July 16, 2018 @10:28AM (#17541487)
Tell that to compound interest.