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Re:No Paper Is That Good by anonytrary on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:03PM (#17520213)
> If you want me to read the vast literature, cite me two papers that are exemplars of that literature. I will read them. If these two papers are full of mistakes and bad reasoning, I will feel free to skip the rest of the vast literature. Because if that’s the best you can do, I’ve seen enough.

This is one of worst ideas I've ever read. Wouldn't you just be cheating yourself?

How is tying your own learning to someone else's ability to find the best papers in any way a smart thing to do? It would be much better to doubt the person who gave you the papers (perhaps he miscalculated which two papers were the best), than to dismiss the entire field.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Friday July 13, 2018 @07:18AM (#17521944)
It's an anti-intellectual stance. These become more and more popular today, even among scholars. The same attitude is often behind rejecting foreign lean words or technical jargon, it's often based on the idea that dumbing things down could somehow make you smarter. It won't. You are as smart as you are, getting gradually a bit dumber but also more experienced over the years, and the rest is education. If you reject education, the only result is that you'll be uneducated.

In my opinion, a real intellectual is interested in the topic and assorted problems and will critically read whatever fuels their interest. Even papers that are not good can be interesting and worthwhile reading. Wise men know the principle "garbage in, garbage out", though, and that their time during life is limited, so they choose their readings carefully. However, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't include fairly bad literature, too. For example, it's necessary to read seminal papers that are part of a canon, no matter how stupid they seem to be.

When I started studying philosophy a long time ago, some tutor whose name I've forgotten gave us two pieces of advice that would have been very valuable to me if I had taken them seriously earlier:

1. Never dismiss a book or paper quickly because you believe you've found a mistake. Read them until the end and take the authors seriously!

2. Aim for writing 1 DIN A4 page a day, no matter what you write (could be personal, could be professional, doesn't matter). You will write much less but as a goal about 1 page a day is good.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattmanser on Friday July 13, 2018 @07:55AM (#17522098)
I'm curious if you read the reasoning as you seem to be presenting an argument based purely on the title. Certainly the original proposal doesn't seem anti-intellectual.

For example he says "full of mistakes", not one mistake.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:14AM (#17522222)
To me it is. You read the paper and then make up your mind on it. You do not dismiss a whole bunch of literature on the basis of two papers someone has provided to you.

There is nothing wrong with choosing your literature carefully, but that's far from the original suggestion. You can and should use your bullshit detector.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by mcherm on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:23AM (#17522290)
The original proposal was not, "For any field of study, I will dismiss it if anyone provides me with two papers that do not meet my standards." Rather, the original proposal was "If you wish to assert a field of study is worthy of my attention, I will acquiesce and spend time studying it so long as you can provide me with two papers that meet my standards."

Because of this formulation, the standards are set rather high. Bryan Caplan's point is that if the best two papers out of a field of hundreds are not above these standards, then there is little value to be gained by slogging through the hundreds.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:35AM (#17522369)
Not very laudable either. First you rely on someone else to give you the best papers and assume that this person knows them, instead of using your own brain. Second, anyone can wish to assert a field of study is worth someone's attention and that still doesn't oblige you to consider it worthy of your attention. Just tell them "fine, do your stuff, I'm not very interested in it" What's wrong with that?

>Bryan Caplan's point is that if the best two papers out of a field of hundreds are not above these standards, then there is little value to be gained by slogging through the hundreds.

And why would anyone need criteria for that? What kind of person would need to justify to themselves or others that they prefer to study topology instead of, say, financial mathematics?

Caplan apparently needs some criterion to be able to be dismissive about someone else's work or discipline rather than pursuing his own scientific goals and interests. Yes, I find that kind of anti-intellectual, or at least small-minded.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by gliboc on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:28AM (#17523217)
The original proposal, which is not by Caplan, tries to optimize time spent reading, which is crucial as a researcher.

> And why would anyone need criteria for that? What kind of person would need to justify to themselves or others that they prefer to study topology instead of, say, financial mathematics?

We need criteria to assess the value to papers, because generally the whole assumed point of writing a paper is to add value.

> Caplan apparently needs some criterion to be able to be dismissive about someone else's work or discipline rather than pursuing his own scientific goals and interests. Yes, I find that kind of anti-intellectual, or at least small-minded.

Ad hominem much. Also, Caplan doesn't say that, and you are talking about the original proposal. You don't seem to have read the article further than the title and the premise, though interestingly you seem able to judge the author itself and convict him with bad thinking. This very much contradicts your own previous piece of advice

> 1. Never dismiss a book or paper quickly because you believe you've found a mistake. Read them until the end and take the authors seriously!

which, to me, seem rather like virtue signaling than a real advice; all the more when you don't apply it thoroughly in reality.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Monday July 16, 2018 @03:54AM (#17539498)
Look, I've never claimed I've read anything, that was your invention, and I've also said that you should use your bullshit detector and wise men choose their literature carefully.

I simply objected to the idea on the linked web page that you can ask someone to give you the two best articles in a field, then assess these, and use your resulting opinion to somehow evaluate the whole field as an outsider.

That idea is silly and small-minded. If that feels like an ad hominem attack to you, so be it.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by joesb on Monday July 16, 2018 @12:37AM (#17538809)
Well, the counter point is the article is that the standards is ridiculous. And that you are just effectively setting those standard so that you'll never have to learn anything from that field, because no paper in that field will pass the ridiculous standard.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by JackFr on Friday July 13, 2018 @11:03AM (#17523494)
> It's an anti-intellectual stance.

It's not - it's a realization that life is short and much research is just writing.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jldugger on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:51PM (#17520405)
It's not about dismissing the field, as much as the claim that you must have read the literature to constructively participate in a debate.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by skywhopper on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:42AM (#17520551)
I think it’s reasonable to expect familiarity with “the literature” beyond “two exemplary papers” to be given any respect in an academic debate. If you aren’t reading the lit reviews and broadly in the topic how can you possibly contribute to the discussion productively? Almost certainly any points you want to make will have been examined and discussed already. This rule is about FOMO for wannabe rennaisssance-man know-it-alls who think their gut reactions are God’s own truth and demand a response from actual experts. If you don’t know the topic and don’t want to learn about it then please find something else to do.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by xamuel on Friday July 13, 2018 @12:52AM (#17520594)
Here's an example.

You stumble on a bunch of psychology papers in which psychologists noticed that whenever 6+ kids get together, there are either three mutual friends, or three mutual non-friends.

The psychologists think this has something to do with child psychology and have written 10,000 pages on it.

You immediately recognize it has nothing to do with psychology and is just basic Ramsey Theory [1]. Should you have to review thousands of pages before being allowed to chip in?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramsey%27s_theorem#Example:_R(...

A less hypothetical example: You're Bertrand Russel and you discover Russel's paradox, a one-liner which negates thousands of pages of Frege's not-yet-published logic textbook. Do you have to wait for him to publish it, and then you read it, before raising your voice?

Re:No Paper Is That Good by mherdeg on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:59AM (#17520804)
What immediately comes to mind is the 1994 paper "A Mathematical Model for the Determination of Total Area Under Glucose Tolerance and Other Metabolic Curves", which drew a lot of attention immediately after it was published, with such follow-up articles as "Tai's Formula Is the Trapezoidal Rule".
Re:No Paper Is That Good by ipioxu15 on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:05AM (#17521487)
> The psychologists think this has something to do with child psychology and have written 10,000 pages on it.

If you mean that 10000 pages in total in 10-page papers, you have read the literature, and become the hero child psychology needs by writing a paper refuting this.

On the other hand, if you did not read the literature wider, how do you know that you are first to do so, or that the misconception is even shared by other than the authors of those papers. Of course, the implicit assumption in all this is that psychologists are stupid.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by joe_the_user on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:47AM (#17520771)
Some scientific subfields are ridiculous on their face.

But there's a crucial difference between that and the way original rule is phrased.

The fields one has to dismiss are characterized by things one knows is false by physics or combinatorics or other common sense things. Theories of telepathy, the flat earth, creation science or whatever.

The "you can't show me one good paper on the subject" is an appealing-seeming pronouncement but it's really dumb way to do it. Just say, "that doesn't make sense and you'd need huge evidence to prove it". Paper quality isn't really the question.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by uncle_d on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:41AM (#17520955)
Re:No Paper Is That Good by Elrac on Friday July 13, 2018 @06:02AM (#17521688)
Sheldrake is my go-to example of bad science.

In one of his experiments monitored by another scientist, when the dog didn't respond in a way that met Sheldrake's criteria, Sheldrake changed the criteria in mid-experiment.

That one incident alone should be enough to dismiss any results coming from Sheldrake. He's not only dishonest but blithely unaware that he's being blatantly so.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattkrause on Friday July 13, 2018 @10:19AM (#17523160)
In my experience, the vast majority of scientists would love to have that Ramsey’s Theory conversation with you. Some people might get prickly if you lead with “This is trivial and I can’t believe you don’t know that....” but I suspect the vast majority of my colleagues would hear you out.

On the other hand....Ramsey’s theorem applies to compelete (undirected) graphs. Friendship is not necessarily symmetric: Alice could consider Bob a friend, but not vice versa. It could also be context-dependent, especially with kids: Alice and Charlie get along, but not when Bob is around.

The thousands of pages that you don’t want to read probably address some of these “details” that your spherical cow model totally ignores. I think it’s totally fair for someone to say “That’s interesting, but have you read X,Y, and Z? They show that your model doesn’t apply because....”

Re:No Paper Is That Good by xamuel on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:41PM (#17525588)
This kind of proves the point. You're misunderstanding the mathematics. Asymmetry of friendship is irrelevant. Whether the friendships have non-local dependency is irrelevant. The kids' friendship and non-friendship IS a colored complete graph: between any two nodes (kids), there is either a red edge (if those two are friends--in the context of the group, if you want), or there is a blue edge (if those two are not friends--in the context of the group, if you want).
Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattkrause on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:50PM (#17526116)
Asymmetry is relevant because your bound comes from undirected graphs. The number for a complete digraph is different.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by xamuel on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:56PM (#17526167)
Oh, now I see what you're saying. Ok, you're right, to be pedantic, the original phenomenon should be reworded: Whenever 6+ kids get together, either there are 3 mutual friends, or there are 3 kids K1,K2,K3 such that for any two K_i, K_j, either K_i is not K_j's friend, or K_j is not K_i's friend. I was implicitly using "A and B are friends" to mean "A is B's friend, and B is A's friend". Thanks for pointing that out :)
Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattkrause on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:23PM (#17527954)
No problem!

My bigger point was that the literature on any given topic is chock full of discussions like this. Is friendship directional? Is it binary, or does it make more sense to consider weights on these edges (casual acquaintance/best friend)? Can an outside observer infer friendship, or do you need to rely on self-reports? If so, how consistent are they? And so on.

The more patient researchers are happy to walk you through these sorts of considerations, especially when you're introducing them to a new tool or something. However, if you catch someone who's busy—or grumpy—you might get blown off with "That won't work. Haven't you read the literature?" Personally, I think this happens too often, but you can sorta see how people might get sick of regurgitating the same arguments over and over.

This is not to say that "read it and come back" can't be used as a moat, or that ideas "from the literature" shouldn't be revisited and questioned, but I think insisting that people do a bit of reading is not usually meant in bad faith.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by varjag on Friday July 13, 2018 @06:22AM (#17521754)
Not a psychologist, but I don't see the immediate connection to Ramsey Theory other than matching numbers. Is there a proof somewhere that human relationships are isomorphic to colored complete graphs? Why not for example hypergraphs, where Ramsey combinatoric figures should be different?
Re:No Paper Is That Good by xamuel on Friday July 13, 2018 @02:48PM (#17525647)
The isomorphism is: let the kids be nodes. Between kids x and y, place a red edge if x and y are friends, or place a blue edge if x and y are not friends.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattkrause on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:45PM (#17526072)
My point, above, is that this isn't necessarily a good abstraction. The edges could be directed (A considers B a friend, B does not consider A a friend). The graph may not actually be complete (maybe absence of friendship is different from non-friendship), and so on.

So yes, if kids' friendships form a complete undirected graph, then sure, your result is not at all surprising. But maybe they don't.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by varjag on Friday July 13, 2018 @03:39PM (#17526021)
Psychologic findings are statistical. Cliques do not form perfectly reliably; there are kids who would have no friends, kids who have common friend but hate each other, or yes all six could be friends indeed.

R(3,3) doesn't seem universal enough here to be touted as "isomorphism"; it is not giving any particular insight except the most trivial (that child cliques sometimes can be represented as monochromatic sets of a complete graph). Am certain one can do a number of other graph-theoretic or algebraic relationships here with zero insight or predictive force.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by xamuel on Friday July 13, 2018 @04:04PM (#17526218)
R(3,3) doesn't say a clique necessarily forms. It says a clique forms or an anti-clique forms (or both). If all six are friends, then there are (6 choose 3) cliques. If all six hate each other, there are (6 choose 3) anti-cliques. If one kid is hated by everyone, that in some sense decreases the odds of a clique but simultaneously increases the chances of an anti-clique, and R(3,3)=6 guarantees that in some sense these increases/decreases balance each other out.
Re:No Paper Is That Good by mesozoic on Friday July 13, 2018 @01:12AM (#17520660)
I don't know of any actual person that believes this they are always happy to jump in a debate with little to know knowledge
Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Friday July 13, 2018 @07:20AM (#17521955)
That's ostensibly silly, though. What if someone mentions paper X and you haven't read it? How would you know a priori that X is bad?

You always need to read all relevant literature to be able to constructively participate in a debate.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by mattmanser on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:03AM (#17522146)
The whole point is to clear what he calls "mud moats", a vast amount of literature that protects an idea from criticism.

Non-adherents can't attack an idea because someone simply says "well have you read X paper? No? Well, then you need to read more.".

And then when you can back and say "but this paper is wrong too", the process just repeats.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by jonathanstrange on Friday July 13, 2018 @08:20AM (#17522253)
Maybe that's a problem in pub discussion with certain kinds of people, but those have nothing to do with science anyway. You can always criticize whatever you like by publishing a critical paper - preferably one in which you also lay out a better approach or present more solid data and statistics.

However, if you show you haven't engaged with the relevant literature and don't address the arguments in sufficient detail, then your paper is likely not going to pass peer review, and rightly so.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by naasking on Friday July 13, 2018 @09:32AM (#17522782)
> How is tying your own learning to someone else's ability to find the best papers in any way a smart thing to do?

If they are supposed to be an expert in the field, that seems like a fair test.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by amelius on Friday July 13, 2018 @05:58AM (#17521680)
What the author wants to read is probably a survey ...
Re:No Paper Is That Good by hessenwolf on Friday July 13, 2018 @06:57AM (#17521868)
Yes - most papers just present one idea, as part of a field.

Although, the original paper of an idea, I often find, has the most human-readable explanation. Pearl's 1986 paper of Bayesian Networks, Gauss' 1800-whatever paper on the normal distribution, the original bitcoin/blockchain paper by that Japanese-sounding name, etc. They're still trying to sell the idea so they really need to talk to the idiots.

Re:No Paper Is That Good by Gatsky on Thursday July 12, 2018 @11:57PM (#17520423)
Yeah it’s silly. If you don’t want to do any research/generate new knowledge, then sure apply this rule. But then, who cares?