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Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by smolsky on Thursday July 05, 2018 @03:42PM (#17466189)
{quote} Also it is important to keep in mind the old tricks used to pass bad laws: they push initially for worse laws then after public protest they slowly step back to the initial goal to pretend people were listened to, so that not only they get what they wanted, but the public is also being fooled into believing their protest were successful and they have politicians who actually listen to them. {end quote}

That's called haggling or bargaining and is old as the notion of trade.

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by ryanmonroe on Thursday July 05, 2018 @04:02PM (#17466336)
Yes, GP even specifically referred to them as "old tricks". But even though the strategy is old, many people do not perceive the process that way so it's worth pointing out.
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by Semiapies on Thursday July 05, 2018 @07:23PM (#17467724)
Sounds more like a paranoid description of how almost all political change, positive or negative, happens. You push for what you want, but if that gets too much opposition, you moderate your proposal the next go-round.

The other approach, of course, is to pursue incremental change. In the same "ZOMG tricks" lens, that's boiling-the-frog-slowly.

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by TheSpiceIsLife on Thursday July 05, 2018 @08:08PM (#17467938)
You push for what you want

No, you push for massive overreach. You never start negotiations asking for what you want.

Then it goes to an "election", the "opposition" party (come on, they all drink at the same bars, do lines of coke in the same toilets) wins, and the "watered down" bill basses with bipartisan support.

We don't live in democracies. Two reasons:

1. regular employees don't get a "winter break"

and

2. Until we have real time visibility of political donations, filtered through an anti-corruption body, we can't know whether the people in government deserve, or are eligible, to be there.

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by kalleboo on Friday July 06, 2018 @12:52AM (#17468939)
> 1. regular employees don't get a "winter break"

We're talking about the EU here, everyone gets 4-6 weeks off a year

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by flexie on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:59AM (#17469757)
Indeed. I find the ignorance about the European labor market amazing.

Not only do most Europeans get our 4-6 weeks of paid vacation. We also don't subtract any sick days from vacation days as is common in the US. We also get paid while sick. In some places by the employer, in some places by the government. Sometimes full pay, sometimes a reduced amount. We also have excellent government paid health care. We also have long termination notices. We have protection for temporary workers (so generally few Europeans work in Amazon jobs with day laborers picked up in the outskirts of the cities). Working weeks are typically 35-40 hours. We have protection for part time workers too. They can not be discriminated against. We have 1-3 years paid maternity leave. In some countries it's paid by employer (with refund from government), in other places it's paid by government directly. Usually the pay is part of salary. We have high participation of women in the labor market. We have paid paternity or parental leaves that are often longer than the American maternity leaves. We have government or labor union set minimum wages but most people make more than the minimum wages. Very few Europeans hold two jobs. If we lose our job, we have various welfare payouts and most importantly; we don't lose healthcare. At the end of working life, Europeans retire with public pensions and private supplements.

Now, there are variations from country to country since not all of the above is EU based; actually little of it is. I am speaking as someone who live in Denmark, Spain, the US and now Bulgaria. Every country in Europe has more of one thing and less of another. In Denmark, for example, the paid maternity leave is only at around one year, and women get paid what amounts to only a small fraction of their salary. In Bulgaria it's up to 3 years, of the first is 90 percent of salary, the second is around minimum wage and the third is without pay.

But generally speaking, European workers live a very sheltered and, I would say, privileged working life. I have yet to meet Europeans fearing loosing a job the way Americans do.

[dead]
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by dang on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:42AM (#17469439)
Please don't break the HN guidelines by calling names.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by Semiapies on Monday July 09, 2018 @08:08PM (#17494435)
I didn't call anyone a name. I characterized the "nowhere is a real democracy" rhetoric as anarchist wank. It's a spiel I have no time for, after talking to enough of these people.
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by lovich on Thursday July 05, 2018 @08:44PM (#17468098)
The US at least is barely a democracy. We are much closer to an oligopoly than anything else.

If you really think we are a democracy, then do you think someone in the US could win the presidency with a good platform and no money, versus someone with a bad platform and a lot of money?

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by ggg9990 on Friday July 06, 2018 @02:44AM (#17469448)
Trump’s election was the most democratic thing in perhaps the history of US politics. Maybe 1% of oligopolists supported him before the primaries and many prominent Republicans didn’t even support him when he had the nomination. In the wake of 2016 one could easily argue that US politics has become far more democratic (the founding fathers intended it to be much less democratic than it has become).

This shows that “democracy” is not a synonym for “good governance.”

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by wiz21c on Friday July 06, 2018 @03:04AM (#17469528)
>>> This shows that “democracy” is not a synonym for “good governance.”

much like law and justice...

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by isostatic on Friday July 06, 2018 @07:23AM (#17470519)
"Laws change depending on who's making them, but justice is justice." -- Odo (A Man Alone)

Star Trek has lots of wisdom, growing up in the 90s was a great time

Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by slededit on Thursday July 05, 2018 @10:49PM (#17468509)
Its much more interesting to see somebody neither party wanted win the presidency.
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by tiles on Thursday July 05, 2018 @11:54PM (#17468720)
But it makes for horrible, horrible governance.
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by coretx on Friday July 06, 2018 @04:32AM (#17469860)
If you can't convince HN, confuse them? On topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window Now please allow me to smear you with terrorism or tin foil hats in case i can't find any further arguments. It's only fair since you dropped the paranoid smear already. ;-)
Re:EU copyright law proposal rejected by inimino on Thursday July 05, 2018 @09:42PM (#17468320)
These two are both as old as the hills and well known to people who read sales manuals as the "door in the face" and "foot in the door" techniques respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique