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Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by joshfraser on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:37PM (#17438775)
I wonder what the Paris Green of today is - the things that are killing us, but we just don't know it yet.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:03AM (#17439446)
Quantum dots and carbon nanotubes.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by therein on Monday July 02, 2018 @05:08AM (#17440270)
Does that mean I should stop ingesting C60 Buckminsterfullerene despite the superstrength?
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:41PM (#17443770)
I assume you're joking, but yes. The issue is surface area and cross section, as these very small molecules tend to disrupt/block catalytic processes inside the cell. In the early hype days of nanotechnology they were thought to be extremely bio-compatible because they are basically chemically inert from a biological perspective, but it turns out they can act very well as a wrench in the gears of cellular machinery in ways that we are just now beginning to understand.

I don't want that to be considered anti-nanotech in any way, as that is my field and hope for the future. But that vision of carbon nanobots swimming our bloodstream is probably not accurate foretelling of the future. We'll probably be using protein components instead for easier bio-biodegradability.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by duxup on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:46PM (#17438809)
I often wonder the same thing. It seems likely that something we take for granted is possibly poisonous considering the number of chemicals we are exposed to in various ways.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by fpoling on Monday July 02, 2018 @03:47AM (#17439926)
One example is processed meat [1]. The precervatives increase shelf life together with the cancer rates.

https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization...

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by jey on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:07PM (#17439080)
I'm waiting for the full story on endocrine disruptors. Maybe there's nothing there, but it also doesn't seem like we really understand their total effects.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by lathiat on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:19AM (#17439658)
I imagine most likely at this point things that are flat out lethal are less likely, but there will be a lot more things that while not lethal might be quite inconvenient - or even just a nuisance, without being truly obvious.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by jonhendry18 on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:02AM (#17441676)
Wait until the current administration's war on regulations is done. Who knows what'll end up on the market.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by jonathanoliver on Sunday July 01, 2018 @10:08PM (#17438883)
The debate on cell phones and their effects is fun to watch. In another 30+ years we should have a solid body of evidence one way or another.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by XorNot on Sunday July 01, 2018 @10:41PM (#17438986)
Or you could look at the very comprehensive evidence available now.

Cigarette companies weren't unaware of the health dangers of their products. Asbestosis wasn't a mystery for decades before any serious action was taken.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by jonathanoliver on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:21PM (#17439126)
I was hoping for 30+ year studies on this topic. Also, for things like LASIK surgery where people who have had LASIK 50+ years earlier and what effects it had on their vision.

Results take time to measure.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by contingencies on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:55PM (#17439245)
What about all the crazy stuff people do to their bodies in the name of beauty? Most of that has to be unhealthy. Skin whitening, starvation, insertion and removal of stuff, stretching of stuff, etc. An ode to the humble corset?
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:14AM (#17439479)
We have a solid body of evidence now. Cell phone radios do not disrupt biological systems.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by crazynick4 on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:55AM (#17439767)
Although observable physical effects on humans have not been proven, behavioral effects on insects have been documented. These are interesting pilot studies because insect behavior is relatively simple and deviations more easily measured when compared to humans. Any explanations as far as the physical mechanism would involve changes in brain chemistry/activity which can be too subtle to detect. I would hold out on a final verdict for now as far as humans go and I don't think further studies should be ridiculed as paranoid just yet. Given the global use of cellphones I think it's better to err on the side of caution.

It's an unpopular suggestion, especially at a time when tin foil hat conspiracies abound, but I don't think it's uneasonable. Emf is an observed physical phenomenon so there is nothing supernatural about the possibility of it's effects on human behavior.

I should also add that what we really have is not so much a solid body of evidence but a number of studies which show a lack of evidence. This could just as easily point to the harmlessness of cell phones as our inability to observe their effects.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by dantheman0207 on Monday July 02, 2018 @06:58AM (#17440650)
Thoughtful and well made counterpoint to the sometimes overprotective stance tech industry people take to criticisms of cell phones. Seems to me like the issue is the dosage - there has never been any organism exposed to this sustained level of background EMF. Any longitudinal study started after widespread adoption.

Do you have any links for the references you made to effects on insect behavior?

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:10PM (#17444055)
I'm not coming from a basis in tech, but rather physics. I have a strong background in elecromagnetic theory and physical chemistry. What, may I ask, is the physical basis for the claim that cell phone radiation causes _______ in biological systems?

For the most part biology is applied chemistry of organic molecules. Due to something called the photoelectric effect, the thing for which Einstein won the Nobel prize (not relativity) and gave birth to quantum theory, we know that EM radiation below a certain material-dependent threshold is incapable of causing chemical reactions. And this is a property of the frequency, not the intensity--it does not matter how bright or compact the source is, or how close you hold it to your ear! If the incoming EM radiation is below that threshold it will have zero measurable effect on chemistry, just some smaller frequency back-scattering and thermal agitation way below the noise threshold. Things above this threshold is what we call "ionizing radiation" because they create ions which affect chemical processes and is why UV light is so dangerous. Cell phone frequencies are 4-6 orders of magnitude below this threshold, depending on the band. Note also that cell phone frequencies are below the level of infrared and visible-light radiation -- all life is being constantly bathed in higher-frequency radiation than your cell phone gives off. And I remind you, it is only the frequency which matters.

And surprise, surprise, if you're not cherry picking studies[1] there is no measurable effect of cell phone radiation on biological systems. Except, perhaps, as quoted by the GP some insects and birds, which is hardly surprising and already known--these species have sensitive organs we lack that enable them to detect electromagnetic fields for navigation purposes. So a bit of a "duh" there since it is about as controversial a result as "sudden bright strobe lights on freeways at night cause traffic accidents".

The effect of EM radiation on biological systems was heavily studied long before the advent of cell phones. It was known to not cause any measurable effect in humans before mobile high-bandwidth data communications was anything more than a glint in the eye of some dreamy EE.

[1] https://xkcd.com/882/

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @05:06PM (#17445329)
EDIT: The obvious retort is "what about microwaves?" After all kitchen microwaves operate on the same frequency as your home WiFi. Your desktop microwave acts not by harmonics with the rotational frequency of water, a common myth, but by that that effect I mentioned of smaller frequency back-scattering and thermal agitation. Your counter-top microwave emits 1kW of power into the food put inside it, which is 100-1,000x as much as your cell phone antenna puts out. And it does so inside a closed cavity instead of an omnidirectional antenna. At that power and with full absorption, thermal effects are no longer negligible.

That's why, for example, technicians working with cell phone tower and microwave antenna installations turn off equipment before standing near the transmitter. They do take proper safety precautions. But the concern here is cooked meat, not some abstract radiation or bio-poisoning thing that will cause cancer 10 years down the line.

The concern over cell phone radio emissions started in part due to the large amount of anecdotal reports from those technicians of insects suffering die off near transmitter stations and migratory birds flying straight into the things, killing themselves. But we shouldn't be surprised -- these insects and birds have large organs meant to sense magnetic fields which operate as crude radio antennas, making them actually sensitive to the EM radiation being put out. But this really isn't any different than, say, deer getting trapped by bright headlights on a dark road, and we shouldn't take it as evidence that the same mechanism might be affecting human beings.

Then again, if you for whatever reason have a conductive surgical implant anywhere near your head or pocket, I wouln't suggest using a cell phone or laptop (on your lap). The concern is not great, but that does put you in the same situation as those insects and birds. I wouldn't be worried about the devices used by poeple around you though (1/R^2 laws and all that).

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by crazynick4 on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:37PM (#17446808)
Thanks for the post, that's all really great information (I just have a stats background, not a physicist/chemist).

My immediate concern based on what you said, and not to go off on a tangent here, would actually be for the bees. You mentioned that it is the frequency and not intensity that matters for humans - is it the same case for the animals/insects that are sensitive to the frequencies?

If we are effectively shining flashlights in their faces, increasing the intensity with each successive generation of wireless, can it eventually affect their ability to pollinate? Birds pollinate as well, to a lesser extent, so it would be the same concern here, on top of the pest control and general ecosystem balance that they provide.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @01:46PM (#17452234)
The short answer is I don’t know, but if I read your question correctly I suspect the answer is “not much impact, if any.” Cell transmission towers would be dangerous at close range, but cell phones themselves would be like flashlights as you say, but not bright ones, and probably not noticeable at all, except at very close range. They’re not listening to these frequencies.

I would think it perhaps analogous to ultrasound. Our electronics are giving off all sorts of ultrasonic noise that we can’t hear (but sometimes annoy dogs and millennials). We have ears capable of hearing, but not at those frequencies. But you could nevertheless expect hearing loss if you put a 1kW ultrasonic beacon right next to your ear.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by fpoling on Monday July 02, 2018 @09:40AM (#17441499)
People working at radar installations were exposed to much higher dosage of EMF than the usage of mobile phones since the second world war. Are there any studies about effect of those?
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by crazynick4 on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:53AM (#17442708)
Not that I'm aware of. A general difficulty with interpreting case studies also is the number of unmeasured confounding factors. And when studying humans, what are we checking - is it simply increased rates of cancer? Or if it is behavioral/mental changes, then the natural differences in personal behaviors across individuals would make it practically impossible to set a control.

Maybe once we finally develop a clone army we can know for sure.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by crazynick4 on Monday July 02, 2018 @11:45AM (#17442630)
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by itronitron on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:14AM (#17439309)
Plastics!
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by garmaine on Monday July 02, 2018 @01:14AM (#17439477)
Unlikely. Plastics are composed of large bio-compatible molecules. The main danger of plastics by themselves is displacement--bits of plastic getting lodged in tissue or cells and sticking around because of that bio-compatibility. That's a real concern, but hardly on the same level as arsenic which chemically disrupts the function of our cells.

There are secondary effects of plastics which accumulate and later release other toxins, but it's a bit disingenuous to blame that on the plastic.

Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by tbabb on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:01AM (#17439609)
There are some studies suggesting that type 2 diabetes might be prion-transmitted, which are not destroyed by normal sterilization techniques. So we might be transmitting that (and god knows what else) with routine surgery.
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by iserkempf on Monday July 02, 2018 @03:36AM (#17439892)
We already know what causes type 2 diabetes - it's almost entirely a question of lifestyle
Re:We discovered three poisonous books in our university lib... by tbabb on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:25AM (#17440088)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28159831

Yes, and that's not mutually exclusive with there being a biochemical risk factor that triggers it or increases susceptibility.

It is certainly a little out there, but if I had to guess at some hidden danger that's ubiquitous in our environment to which we are oblivious, I'd say "prions are more prevalent and dangerous than we think" isn't a bad place to start.