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Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:36PM (#17436261)
This article really demonstrates how meaningless most economics reporting is, it's nearly as bad as markets/finance reporting.

Oil is $75, about average over the last decade. It has almost nothing to do with employment, wage growth or GDP except inasmuch as all major economic measures affect eachother. A year ago oil prices were low, did that mean the opposite of this article (whatever that is) was true?

This kind of writing leans very heavily on its metrics, euphemisms and cliches. I have a feeling the journalists would not be able to unpack any of its abstractions.

"If slack were eliminated everywhere, pay might rise faster." _.._"hawks think there is little room to boost real wages by running labour markets hotter." _.._"structural changes in the economy, rather than weak demand alone, have stacked the deck against workers."

...If asked, would the writer be able to give a specific examples or instances for any of these? Are "labour market running hot" or "central bank tightening" references to actual things that are happening or are these just boilerplate sentences that get added to any article?

I really don't see how anyone is more informed of anything, even about the authors' opinions, from reading this.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:40PM (#17436276)
> Are "labour market running hot" or "central bank tightening" references to actual things

Yes. Unemployment is very low. That means if you need ten people, you may have to pay more or wait longer than you expected. That is what “labour market running hot” refers to. “Eliminating slack” means encouraging employers to raise wages (which can cause inflation) to fill productive jobs.

“Central bank tightening” refers to the Federal Reserve reducing its balance sheet and raising rates. There is a Fed meeting later this year when target rates are expected to be raised, partly in reaction to said labour market.

I agree that the financial press could afford to be less jargon heavy.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by AnthonyMouse on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:41PM (#17437165)
> “Eliminating slack” means encouraging employers to raise wages (which can cause inflation) to fill productive jobs.

If you reallocate money without creating new currency, what you get isn't really inflation. Prices may adjust because the demand for things lower income people buy increases and the demand for things higher income people buy decreases, and prices follow demand. But supply and demand isn't inflation.

And that effect is present for any method of reducing wealth inequality. If we had less inequality, people who are currently poor would then have more money and use it to buy things. If those things are scarce then their prices will increase.

It's like saying we shouldn't decrease homelessness because it may increase energy prices when the new homeowners have to heat their new homes. Even if it's nominally true, the implication that the cost outweighs the benefit is ridiculous.

And if you're really worried about high prices, the way to combat them isn't to denigrate efforts to increase middle class wages, it's to address artificial scarcity in markets like housing.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:37PM (#17437415)
> If you reallocate money without creating new currency, what you get isn't really inflation

You’re forgetting about velocity. A dollar in a middle class earner’s hands gets spent faster than a dollar in a billionaire’s. That faster spending stokes both growth and inflation.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:50PM (#17437827)
> gets spent faster than a dollar in a billionaire’s

Billionaire's don't hoard cash. Money they don't spent is all invested. Billionaires know how to manage money, and don't pile it up in Scrooge McDuck cash vaults.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @06:19PM (#17437981)
> Billionaire's don't hoard cash

Velocity’s relationship with income is well documented. (Note, too, that velocity most properly measures the purchase of goods and services. Transaction velocity also includes investment. Even that goes down as income goes up.)

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Sunday July 01, 2018 @07:28PM (#17438301)
I'd like to see some documentation that rich people hoard cash. Note that money stuffed into a checking account is still invested - the bank loans it out to people who spend it.

Even so, I seriously doubt wealthy people have non-trivial amounts of money in checking accounts, because the interest paid on them is nearly non-existent. Wealthy people know how to manage their money, and investing it in 0% checking accounts, stuffing it in mattresses, or burying it in tin cans are all terrible investments.

Drug dealers wind up with large blocks of cash because they have difficulties laundering it so they can invest it. The idea that anyone else has pallets of cash in their basements is sheer nonsense.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by auntienomen on Sunday July 01, 2018 @10:28PM (#17438938)
A fun aside: Banks don't loan out deposits.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022416/why-b...

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:37PM (#17439192)
I think that is a misreading of the article. A lack of bank deposits constrain lending, so banks need deposits in order to lend.

Banks keep as little cash as possible, because (again) cash does not earn money. They try to lend out as much as possible. The people who borrow money don't sit on it, either, who wants to pay interest on money sitting in a pile?

The whole cash hoarding theory is nonsense.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by qaq on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:20PM (#17439121)
they sure do. Current fed rate is 2.0%
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by lsiebert on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:57AM (#17439774)
Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, even after massaging the numbers by suggesting measurement issues may account for differences, shows a 30% difference between poor and rich in terms of average propensity to consume.

https://www.frbsf.org/economic-research/publications/economi...

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:00AM (#17439989)
That paper makes the fundamental error I am talking about. It assumes that if rich people aren't spending on consumption, they are hoarding cash. It then makes economic sense to redistribute that hoarded cash in order to put the money to use.

But the rich aren't hoarding cash. They're investing it. The money is put to use. The rich do not have pallets of cash in the basement.

You'd think that professional bankers would understand this.

Here's the salient quote from the paper:

"Surveys show low-income households tend to spend a larger share of their income than high-income households. Because of this, temporarily redistributing income from the rich to the poor could stimulate consumption and, through that, the economy as a whole."

Yup, that's the "rich people hoard cash" theory.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by xg15 on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:30AM (#17440114)
> But the rich aren't hoarding cash. They're investing it. The money is put to use. The rich do not have pallets of cash in the basement.

As a general statement, that's just as much an assumption as the GP's claim. Where are the studies to back it?

I could certainly imagine situations where someone owns a lot of wealth but never developed the skill to manage it - classical example being inheritance.

Also (unrelated to the argument), "investing" != "put to good use". If an investor chooses the strategy that gives themselves the best ROI that doesn't mean the investment is necessarily beneficial for anyone else. (Except in an abstract "stimulating the economy" sense. But if that is all you want, you could just spend all your money continuously digging holes and filling them again.)

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:42AM (#17440165)
Even putting your money in a checking account causes it to be spent into the economy (as the bank loans it out).

There's no rational reason to borrow money and make a pile out of it.

Even people who operate cash businesses (like casinos) rush to deposit the cash in a bank ASAP.

> If an investor chooses the strategy that gives themselves the best ROI that doesn't mean the investment is necessarily beneficial for anyone else.

Actually, it does mean just that. An investment is giving someone else money to do something productive with that money. That person will take their cut, and so benefit.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by salawat on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:05PM (#17444010)
Why always hand it over to someone else? You can't say that tons of investment is always a good thing.

Look at the Dairy industry in the United States. Wal-Mart has vertically integrated the dairy industry into itself, as a result, many smaller regional farmers no longer have a market at all since there is no way to compete with someone who is so well integrated that they can SELL AT A LOSS in dairy, yet compensate by making up for it with social engineering via loss-leading.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/best-advice-u-s-dairy-f...

You CANNOT sit idly by and say that investment is ALWAYS a positive societal good when by definition, the "rational invester" (read: paperclip maximizer for ROI) will naturally tend to converge on creating monolithic structures, which, by their nature as "rational corporate actors" act as, again, paperclip maximizers for profits.

Balance sheets do NOT accurately convey the full story of economic processes at work creating tangible effects in the real world, any more than meteorological climate models do.

If you take into account side effects caused by collectively funded (via rational investment methodologies) creating monolithic industry-consuming behemoths, then the idea the rich are "hoarding money" makes perfect sense.

Wal-Mart in this case is doubling down on automation, and keeping what payroll it pays low, so it's not actually acting to distribute wealth back to those who are so strapped they can't even think of investing, because they need to put the next meal on the table.

EVEN if they could statistically speaking, the most wealthy are the most likely to be able to pick up what stock they'd have to sell, because stock doesn"t put food on the table.

This creates a situation where regardless of who's hand the money is actually in, the outcome is the same. Monolithic businesses will be invested in, they'll integrate until they start creating value deserts in their space, and in order to contribute to continuing growth figures, will optimize away liabilities by minimizing workforce or salary. The only one's benefiting being those already on board.

Does it "GENERALLY" work well though? Yes and no. Yes, given the absence of any actors large enough to create value deserts through excessive vertical integration? Yes! It does!

No. I'm the sense that that isn't what the market seems to produce though. Companies will diversify, merge, or employ externalization of negative outcomes EXACTLY to accomplish making themselves the best looking target for investors.

At some point, enough has to be enough. The economy is one of the few process spaces where eternal growth is EXPECTED. No living system constrained by finite resource and time CAN grow indefinitely without causing major systemic upsets.

An equivalent solution to what Wal-Mart is doing could be achieved with networks of smaller less "fiscally efficient" distribution centers doing business with fewer monolithic industrial behemoths. This keeps the barrier to entry lower, leads to more opportunities for job creation, and increases financial mobility overall. This is something that CAN't exist with uncontrolled maximization of ROI by investors, and profits by corporation. At some point enough HAS to be enough.

Maybe I'm not an economist, but I've seen enough complex systems to recognize when blind spots exist in current modeling. This is something I see never get addressed.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Monday July 02, 2018 @06:05PM (#17445763)
> ALWAYS a positive societal good

I didn't say it was. I was responding to "beneficial for anyone else".

> value deserts

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

There are some sound reasons for redistributing money from the wealthy to the poor. Benefiting the economy because the rich are hoarding money or are incompetent investors is not one of them.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by salawat on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @12:25AM (#17447509)
Value deserts in the sense that no competitors can break into the market to capture share, because the market is essentially defined by the entrenched player. Yes it does happen.

Again, look at Wal-Mart and dairy. Alphabet\Google does the same with digital advertising.

I'm not saying people are crap investors either. I'm saying the definition of a "good investor" (maximize fimancial ROI) and a "good company" (maximize financial profit) leads inevitably to market behemoths forming which WILL degenerate the health of the economy as a whole, and drastically increase barriers to entry for smaller players. A company as a collective stands as much as a danger when it becomes too large as it does a benefit.

A "good company" should not grow infinitely. It should grow as much as is needed to do what it needs to. That is providing it's service to it's community. No living system constrained by finite time and resources can support unceasing growth. The economy is just such a system.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @02:30AM (#17448013)
I think this has wandered way off topic.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by salawat on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @08:40PM (#17454630)
Not really... It's just about a 4th degree argument I'm making.

-1st degree:Real wage growth doesn't happen, because investor behavior wants the most money back to them from a company.

-2nd degree: A company will try to trim "waste" by cutting immediate liabilities to the lowest they can to maintain requisite Talent.

-3rd Degree: Talent is going to go where the biggest bucks can be made, and that will be the biggest market behemoth which exists currently. The infusion of investor capital exaggerates buying power to acquire and retain Talent which would be necessary for smaller competitors to get a leg up against the behemoth"s entrenched position. This leads to value deserts, which adversely effects industry as a whole.

-4th degree: Smaller competitors die in value deserts. supply goes down, demand stays the same or goes up. Prices go up, profit goes up, return to 1st degree.

Wal-Mart captured a great deal of investor capital. In order to keep itself looking tempting to investor's it has to grow (diversify), cut liabilities (minimize wage growth, decrease employment/payroll via automation, and minimize benefits expenditures through scheduling shenanigans), or do BOTH at the same time by vertically integrating their supply chain and using loss leading's attendant benefits to undercut small producers; this pushes them out of the market, jacks up prices on the commodity when supply goes down, thereby increasing profits, thereby drawing more investment capital. Start the cycle again with the next industry.

It's called a positive feedback loop, and in nature, if they aren't compensated for, bad things happen. It just so happens that this one has a multi-generational period, so no-one has lived long enough or paid enough attention to get upset about it. If they did, I just haven't found their paper, bit I have the feeling people are starting to notice, even if they can't articulate it.

It goes back to wage growth because of the link between 1 and 2. 3 and 4 are what cause the actual societal\market damage. You can't "solve" the problem without fundamental rethink on the axiom that kicks off all of this, which is "the best investment is to dump as much money as possible into the fastest growing company", which has a sub axiom of "growth without bounds is acceptable and to be encouraged".

It ain't straightforward, but nothing about economics seems to be. If there is a glaring flaw, please enlighten me. I REALLY want to improve my understanding.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:50AM (#17440189)
> As a general statement, that's just as much an assumption as the GP's claim. Where are the studies to back it?

Never in my life have I ever heard of anybody (other than criminals and a few mentally ill people) with a cash hoard. Nor have I ever known anyone to do this. I've never seen any newspaper article about anyone with a hoard. Never a magazine article profiling millionaires with cash hoards. No books about it.

And yet, it is apparently conventional wisdom that wealthy people hoard cash as a general rule.

Name one wealthy American with a cash hoard.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Monday July 02, 2018 @08:53AM (#17441205)
> they are hoarding cash

I don’t think anyone assumes anyone is hoarding cash. It’s just a time to deployment question.

A dollar flowing into a wealthy person’s account may take a week or two to get loaned out or fielded into an investment, and another week or two to pay the investment manager or begin facilitating the purchase of goods and services. A dollar dropped into an empty checking account may buy food that day from an establishment which will sweep it out to a supplier the next day.

Our financial system is efficient, but the last time I saw a statistic for the figure, it takes about two weeks for the average checking account deposit to get turned into a mortgage.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by WalterBright on Monday July 02, 2018 @05:13PM (#17445364)
What happens when you buy something with cash? The vendor deposits the money in his bank account.

Same thing.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by lsiebert on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:48PM (#17454458)
Consumed money is more stimulative of the economy then money that is invested, because consumed money first circulates 1 or more times, and then is likely invested as well, whereas directly invested money doesn't circulate before it's invested.

It's like saying that a formula 1 race isn't faster then a car parked on the start line because it ends up at the same place. It ignores the times the car goes around the track.

It also presumes that a choice of an investment is as good as the free market in distributing capital effectively.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by snarfybarfy on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @08:06AM (#17449447)
Consumption != Investment

Imagine a world where everyone put 99% of his income into investments. There would be nothing to invest in, because nobody was consuming.

And by this definition the poor are definitely putting the money to better use because they cause the economy to grow by spending it all.

The rich are currently facing an asset price inflation because there is too much money wanting to be invested and not enough consumption for all those assets to be put to good use.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by AnthonyMouse on Sunday July 01, 2018 @08:16PM (#17438500)
> You’re forgetting about velocity. A dollar in a middle class earner’s hands gets spent faster than a dollar in a billionaire’s. That faster spending stokes both growth and inflation.

At a fixed money supply, growth causes deflation. People want to engage in more transactions and they need money to do it, which increases demand for currency.

You often see inflation during periods of growth because when there are high returns to be had, people take out loans to expand and banks making loans creates new money. The new money causes inflation. But if you really didn't want that to happen, it's simple to prevent it by requiring banks to hold more reserves (so they won't make as many loans).

But it's not clear why preventing moderate inflation should even be desirable. If you get a 10% raise at the same time as prices increase by 4%, who's complaining? You're up 6% annually and your mortgage, credit card debt and share of the national debt are down 4%.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @08:27PM (#17438549)
> At a fixed money supply, growth causes deflation

True. This is the problem with fixed money supplies.

We moved past fixed money supplies several decades ago. My statement stands true in any modern context. Rich households spend slower than poor households.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by pjc50 on Monday July 02, 2018 @02:23AM (#17439666)
> it's not clear why preventing moderate inflation should even be desirable. If you get a 10% raise

Raises aren't automatic, they often have to be fought for. Especially in the public sector. What tends to happen in tones of inflation is labour unrest; people find their food prices have gone up by 10% so they need a >10% raise urgently, taking to the streets if necessary.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by eli_gottlieb on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:58PM (#17437532)
I've heard it said that in policy terms, people tend to always suggest the solutions to the problems they had when they were young. In this case, for a long, long time, well into my adulthood now, we've had policy made by people for whom the Grand Crisis to be solved was the stagflation of the '70s. For my generation, that Grand Crisis is the Great Recession and the rise of the nationalist alt-right.

For the present problems of overly high inequality and falling productivity, indeed, the correct solutions probably run opposite to the "solutions" to the '70s stagflation crisis (wage repression and deflationary monetary policy).

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by xg15 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:19PM (#17437342)
Even if it did, using that as a reason to not increase wages seems like a recipe for irreversible inequality. E.g. if lowering wages is encouraged (because it decreases labour cost) and rising wages is discouraged (because it increases inflation) then how exactly should income ever become more equalized?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:51PM (#17436328)
I have (more than a little dusty) degree in economics, and I still don't understand what this article is trying to tell me.

Is it telling me that when unemployment is low, central bank policy is to raise interest rates? If so, why not say that? What I meant is that generally I don't see how the sentences in this article add up to .. an article. It's a bunch of metrics, chosen by convention, expressed in cliche. It kind of sounds like it's telling us a theory or opinion about something, but it isn't really.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:54PM (#17436344)
> Is it telling me that when unemployment is low, central bank policy is to raise interest rates? If so, why not say that?

Raising rates aren’t the only way to solve the problem of (a) people who could be in the labour market but aren’t and (b) insufficient labour in the places it needs to be.

Whatever it’s trying to do, it got me thinking about barriers to hiring in New York City. Are there steps we could eliminate or consolidate? Last week’s primary just saw my former bartender and taco server effectively become a Congresswoman for Queens. An article about the central bank and unemployment would not have prompted me to consider discussing this with her.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by extralego on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:14PM (#17436443)
You probably lost a great bartender and taco server. Honestly, I’m sorry to hear that. But her victory is very refreshing. What do you think?

Why not discuss it with her?

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:21PM (#17436477)
> You probably lost a great bartender and taco server

I would have never tried the pastrami taco if it hadn’t been for her!

> Why not discuss it with her?

She’s campaigning. Not sure distractions would help. In any case, these sorts of proposals benefit from specificity. Next steps are doing homework and proposing specific rule changes.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by extralego on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:03PM (#17436687)
If only that was all that stood in her way.

Let’s not take pastrami tacos for granted.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:21PM (#17436791)
> Let’s not take pastrami tacos for granted

They’re actually a brilliant fusion of American Hispanic and American Jewish traditions. As it happens, her district has prominent populations of each.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by extralego on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:49PM (#17437480)
Oh right, nice. They sound incredible.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by jessaustin on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:15PM (#17436745)
Is Crowley going to run on a write-in basis? What would that accomplish, other than proving how little [some] Democrats think of the electorate?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by danans on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:33AM (#17439354)
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by eli_gottlieb on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:11PM (#17437618)
>Whatever it’s trying to do, it got me thinking about barriers to hiring in New York City. Are there steps we could eliminate or consolidate?

The part where someone has to compete for ultra-scarce housing in and around NYC.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by mc32 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:11PM (#17437024)
I'm curious to see how far she goes with her esposal of Chavista policies and if she does, what its impact will be on the community.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:34PM (#17437131)
> her esposal of Chavista policies

Source? (Genuinely curious.)

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by mc32 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:57PM (#17437245)
I exaggerate, but I think the intercept has a decent take on her https://theintercept.com/2018/06/30/theres-an-easy-answer-to...
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by toomuchtodo on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:37AM (#17439369)
I’d assume she’d go far, considering her democratic socialist policies are aligned with those of Bernie Sanders, who has the highest approval rating of a US congressional representative.

Based on the wealth and income demographics of her community, democratic socialist policies would be net benefit.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by derf_ on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:08PM (#17437602)
> Is it telling me that when unemployment is low, central bank policy is to raise interest rates?

You may dimly recall from your undergraduate Macro courses a relationship between unemployment and inflation called the Phillips Curve [0], which is used to evaluate one of the "dual mandates" the Fed tries to fulfill with its interest rate setting policy.

The problem, of course, is that there is evidence from the Fed's own research that suggests that the Phillips Curve is balderdash [1]. That doesn't stop central banks (including the Fed) from pretending it's still true, though.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_curve

[1] https://www.philadelphiafed.org/-/media/research-and-data/pu...

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @06:24PM (#17438005)
> central banks (including the Fed) from pretending it's still true

I can’t recall a major central bank basing a policy decision on the Philip’s Curve since the 1970s.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by derf_ on Sunday July 01, 2018 @08:44PM (#17438600)
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/capitolreport/2016/03/16/live-b...

12:29 pm

The Philips Curve is alive, [Federal Reserve Chair Janet] Yellen says.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dragonwriter on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:01PM (#17438656)
That's not a quote, it's a, well, headline-level interpretation. Followed by a more exact (but still not exact) interpretation, which states the existence of an inverse relationship; there's considerable support for the idea that an inverse relationship between unemployment and inflation exists at least in the short run, but that it is more complex than the original extension of the Phillips curve to unemployment and general inflation (it originally addressed unemployment and wage inflation) would suggest.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by derf_ on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:41PM (#17438786)
You are right, of course. Here's the exact quote:

So the Philips Curve posits that there is a relationship between the degree of slack in the labor market and inflation, and it is an empirical relationship that, while not absolutely tight, has been a consistent relationship over time, and I believe that relationship still holds.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?406675-1/federal-reserve-chair...

> there's considerable support for the idea that an inverse relationship between unemployment and inflation exists at least in the short run

Would you care to cite some? I'm certainly familiar with the post-70's forms of Phillips Curve theory (it's discussed in the very Wikipedia article I linked). But I also cited a 2017 paper from the Philadelphia Fed that looked very hard for such a relationship and couldn't find one, and which itself cites prior research going back to 2001 that agrees.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by CPAhem on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:37PM (#17437417)
>Yes. Unemployment is very low. Actually it is not that low, especially out of the tech sector.

Real unemployment and under-employment are high because of the way unemployment is now measured. The definition of being unemployed has changed since the GFC to manipulate the statistics.

Some tricks to manipulate the numbers are:

- If you have been unemployed for more than 6 months you are no longer classified as unemployed.

- Work for one hour a month, say mow your neighbor's lawn or give someone a paid ride in your car and you are no longer unemployed.

- Give up an stop looking for work, and you're no longer unemployed.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by jjoonathan on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:44PM (#17437445)
If you're going to accuse someone of manipulating unemployment indices, please specify which index you mean, e.g. U3, U4, U5, or U6.

Looking at different indices at different times is obviously going to skew the results, but that's the fault of the person doing the looking, not the BLS, Obama, or the Deep State.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by uncoder0 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:47PM (#17437467)
Who said Deep State? Are you using the terms actual usage? i.e. Unelected career bureaucrat? Or, are you using the colloquial definition meaning a conspiring group of unelected career bureaucrats attempting to resist change in the federal government?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by jjoonathan on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:55PM (#17437519)
I listed "Deep State" as an example of a group that conspiracy theorists often blame for manipulative government activity. I would be thoroughly unsurprised if there were 10 common definitions of the term that were all ill-posed. Fortunately, the precise definition of "Deep State" has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument, so elaboration on the point is completely unnecessary.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by bovine3dom on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:53PM (#17437506)
The employment rate covers point 1 and 3: it is simply the number of people in work divided by the working age population.

I think you might be confusing cyclical and structural unemployment with your first point. I think it is valid to talk about the two numbers separately as they deal with pretty different problems (labour market liquidity/efficiency versus skills shortages).

The employment rate is at an all time high in many countries.

As for point 2: employment in the black economy is usually not included in official employment figures; people who want to work more hours are classed as underemployed although data on this is not as comprehensive as for the other measures.

I do not think the definition of employment has changed much in the last decade. Do you have a source?

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dahauns on Sunday July 01, 2018 @08:19PM (#17438512)
>it is simply the number of people in work divided by the working age population.

Nah, this would be the labor force participation rate - and that one took a plunge since 2008 and never recovered since.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by bovine3dom on Monday July 02, 2018 @04:38AM (#17440157)
They're pretty close to synonyms in my and other people's understanding [1,2], but I would be unsurprised if some countries defined them differently. Edit: I've since realised from reading my own links carefully the labour force participation rate is employed + unemployed (looking for work) / working age population. Employment rate is employed / working age population. So I think I was right with saying employment rate initially : )

The OECD chart linked (if you play with the sliders) shows that both are increasing globally. I know that in the UK the employment rate is at an all-time high [3].

Your link seems like it might be using a strange measure of employment [4] which excludes agricultural workers and the military in the numerator and includes all people who are aged 16+ in the denominator, so as your population ages, the indicator would worsen.

[1] https://data.oecd.org/emp/employment-rate.htm

[2] https://data.oecd.org/emp/labour-force-participation-rate.ht...

[3] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

[4] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/civilian-labor-force.as...

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by Joeri on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:08PM (#17436411)
This article really demonstrates how meaningless most economics reporting is, it's nearly as bad as markets/finance reporting.

The problem is not with the reporting, it’s with the field. Economics is pseudoscience. It has all the trappings but none of the explanatory or predictive abilities. So you get articles like these that use a lot of jargon pretending like they’re making a strong case, but there’s no strong consensus position reached here beyond the bare observables.

Economics can’t be a science yet. It is a branch of sociology, modelling the economic behavior of people, and we lack the sociological insight to do that currently.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by pembrook on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:31PM (#17436842)
Economics is not pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is essential oils being marketed as medicine.

Economics is a social science, just like anthropology, archaeology, history, linguistics, political science, psychology, sociology, etc. etc.

It's never going to be something with Laws of Gravity or the like, because humans are never wholly predictable or rational creatures. But that doesn't mean we can't come up with models that explain markets a majority of the time, in a macro sense.

Why do you think central bank policy has been able to prevent a depression from occurring over the last 90 years, when in the past they were a regular occurrence? That's economics in action. Just because it lacks the certainty of computer science doesn't mean you can throw out the baby with the bath water.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by crdoconnor on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:15PM (#17437042)
>Economics is a social science, just like anthropology, archaeology, history, linguistics

Unlike those sciences there's a lot of money in economics invested in certain conclusions, though.

It does not help Walmart's bottom line, for instance, if everybody stops believing that raising the minimum wage causes unemployment.

There aren't equivalent controversies with money behind them like in other social sciences (and other social sciences don't get paid as much).

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by tcbawo on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:19PM (#17437063)
We've avoided a major depression so far, but our institutional knowledge only spans a couple generations. There are very few people left who lived through the Great Depression. That there is active debate regarding policies that will prevent future depressions is not encouraging. Those who learn history are cursed to watch as history repeats.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by wonder_er on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:32PM (#17437735)
> Why do you think central bank policy has been able to prevent a depression from occurring over the last 90 years, when in the past they were a regular occurrence?

There is a strong school of thought that argues that central bank policy has created _more_ and _worse_ depressions than before.

The fact that we can now debate if a central bank is a good thing or a bad thing is evidence that it's all pseudoscience.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by aborochoff on Sunday July 01, 2018 @07:29PM (#17438312)
People debate whether or not global warming is happening (or whether its man made). Does that mean the field behind global warming research a pseudoscience (by your definition)?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:27PM (#17436514)
> Economics can’t be a science yet

Macroeconomics, yes. Microeconomics is a proper science. It has theories which make predictions which can be demonstrated in experiments.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:56PM (#17436646)
I don't think that makes it a science.

When Karl Popper criticised economics (and freudianism) for being a pseudo-science, there wasn't a real macro-micro divide. Adam Smith, Ricardo and the like were essentially micro-economists.

You can experiment in some very small (raise the price of a product on a shelf) ways. The bulk of economics is about how these small components interact as a large dynamic. When it comes to predictions like "increasing minimum wage will lead to increased unemployment," it's never been adequately demonstrated experimentally.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by michaelcampbell on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:53PM (#17437221)
> I don't think that makes it a science.

Hypothesis, experimentation, the ability to negate/falsify, some predictive ability ... Either these things are not true, or your bar for "being a science" is higher than most.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:20PM (#17436787)
> The bulk of economics is about how these small components interact as a large dynamic

If I’m setting pricing and volumes at a firm, I don’t give a rat’s ass about the larger dynamics. I want to know how production variables will impact sales. For this, I can A/B test and rely on a deep corpus of research on queueing theory, supply and demand network and latency models, and logistical models.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by freeflight on Sunday July 01, 2018 @06:57PM (#17438163)
> I don’t give a rat’s ass about the larger dynamics

But just because you don't, doesn't mean they don't exist/matter. You can do a lot on your individual micro-scale, but you will have a very hard time understanding how these changes affect the overall economy on a macro scale.

For all we know, "the market" is pretty much just a giant black box. It's not totally black, but we have a very hard time properly defining, or even quantifying, what's actually going on there.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @08:23PM (#17438524)
> you will have a very hard time understanding how these changes affect the overall economy on a macro scale

We understand the relationship between the temperature and pressure of ideal gasses without a precise presentation of quantum mechanics. Similarly, we can produce useful production functions without comprehending the complexity of the bulk.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by freeflight on Monday July 02, 2018 @07:40AM (#17440832)
I'm not sure I can agree with that comparison because physics, even quantum mechanics, are a still considered a natural science.

Economics, on the other hand, are usually considered part of the social sciences, due to the heavy sociological influences, which make modeling, predicting and testing extremely difficult.

For all the talk of "the market", especially in the financial sector and by glorifying certain successful individuals, the reality seems to be far less understood than many people would admit to. Probably has to do with these people usually trying to sell their services/financial products with a reputation for "understanding and mastering the market".

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by conanbatt on Monday July 02, 2018 @12:36AM (#17439366)
You cant replicate an A/B test in economics.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by neilwilson on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:39PM (#17436561)
Probably worth reading Debunking Economics before being sold on all microeconomic ideas. Particularly anything to do with the theory of the firm.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by JumpCrisscross on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:56PM (#17436637)
> Particularly anything to do with the theory of the firm

Theory of the firm is closer to a hypothesis. I’m not sure how one would experimentally verity its claims.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by wilsonnb2 on Monday July 02, 2018 @10:57AM (#17442153)
> Economics can’t be a science yet. It is a branch of sociology

Sociology is a science, and so branches of it are also science. There are differences between the hard/soft or natural/social sciences but that doesn't mean that soft science isn't science.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:13PM (#17437634)
>> Economics is pseudoscience

I was cranky at The Economist when I wrote that and I guess from the upvotes other people were too. It's a crappy article, and they shouldn't publish crap... I like the Economist, on balance.

Anyway, interesting that you bring up pseudoscience. I think most good economists, or economists on good days prefer to think of economics as just not science. Some of the founders of modern economics were also the founders of modern anti-scientism. They were the generation that experienced bloody wars between marxism, liberalism, and a highly pseudoscientific nazism. They were all backed by pseudoscientific "theories," with key elements leaning heavily on economics. ..actual wars. Karl Popper is IMO, the iconic guardian of the fine line.

These are the same intellectuals that The Economist's position alway alludes to when they get ideological themselves. open society, liberalism. It's actually not ironic. Even Hayek & Popper were sort of confused cases, having been drawn into all sorts of utopian stuff. I think it was the time. Even libertarians/anarchists became obsessed with boring technical philosophy, and all the schismatic flavours hate one another.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by baursak on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:24PM (#17436499)
Relevant: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/1991/10/-quot...

"The magazine is written by young people pretending to be old people... If American readers got a look at the pimply complexions of their economic gurus, they would cancel their subscriptions in droves."

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by tcbawo on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:11PM (#17437021)
If American readers knew the track record of most economic gurus, they would cancel their subscriptions and demand a refund.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by mifreewil on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:17PM (#17437055)
This article is nearly 30 years old.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by pembrook on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:48PM (#17437204)
But perhaps even more true today, as the profession of journalism has become even younger and lower paid than it was before.

Without the steady subscription revenue of the past, you can't afford to hire big name writers with decades of experience anymore.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:51PM (#17436615)
heh.

He doesn't like the economist at all.

I don't agree in general, the economist is often good. This article (and economics generally)... I have to agree. Heavy on Oxbridge feel, light on actual ideas.

Most of what these kind of articles convey is a feel, justified by technical sounding babble that a friendly reader will assume is adequate.

Ironically, the iconic example of this kind of carry on is marxism. 93.6% of all communist/marxist writing was a sharp tongued criticism. Moral critiques of capitalism. Critical reporting on the state of the urban working class in Europe. But, Marx (and his Bougie Oxbridge readers) needed more than that though. They needed to refute "Bourgeoisie Economists" and "Liberal Political Scientists." That's why Das Capital was so important. No one read it, but owning a copy added intellectual weight to one's marxism.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by naravara on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:37PM (#17436863)
This is pretty routine with the Economist. The anonymous bylines obscure the fact that most of their writers are fresh out of college economic majors with little to no real-world experience. When all you have is undergraduate level economics models and no experience to anchor it to how business actually works or decisions actually gets made, then you’re going to have vague, overgeneralized gobbledygook for analysis.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by ryanstorm on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:52PM (#17436334)
The Economist just went through a month-long series on the faults of economists and the field. I'm sure they'd be able to go into more detail, but this seems to be one of their more simplified articles.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:07PM (#17436403)
IDK... The economist has a lot of great reporting on diplomacy, politics, threats to "free society.." I can't remember the last time I read a good economist article on economics.

When Thomas Pickety won the nobel, and got so much coverage, the economist ran some article structured pretty much like this one. All jargonized, cliched & euphamised language.

I'm not upset at the economist's positions, political orientation or such. I'm upset with the "Quantum Healing" style of pseudo-argument that is now dominant in their economic writing. They are using economic terms. They are saying sentences that are true, just not meaningful in the context. Then they flavour this with vaguer, more abstract sentences which sound more meaningful while being less meaningful.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:39PM (#17436271)
..extra point. This is the most ridiculous part:

Continued tightening in labour markets might yet boost workers’ bargaining power enough for that to happen, as was the case during the late 1990s and late 2000s, two unusual periods in which labour’s share of GDP rose across the rich world.

Labour’s share of GDP is a fraction. labour/gdp. you can make it bigger by having higher wages or lower gdp. Anyone remember 1999 or 2008? Anything "unusual" about those years?

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by chibg10 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:43PM (#17436572)
Ehhh, I think you're fudging the causality here and reading your own incorrect perspective into the article.

Recessions hit the lowest rungs of the economic ladder hardest, and those same rungs are last to fully get in on the recovery. Hence, labor's share of GDP tends to be highest at the end of the business cycle... which necessarily coincides with an imminent recession.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by droidist2 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:12PM (#17437314)
Or is it that when wages rise and inflation kicks in, the Fed raises rates to "cool off" the economy, and then the recession comes?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by harryh on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:51PM (#17436330)
GDP was still increasing in the late 90s in the US. The recession didn't start until March 2001.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by ethbro on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:00PM (#17436374)
The interesting corollary would be that in the run-up to a recession, all other assets and opportunities are so over-valued that capital has nowhere else to go.

And that increasing wages for labor is in fact capital's least-preferred option.

Which would be sad, but more or less jive with how the modern global, publicly traded economy works.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by eli_gottlieb on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:30PM (#17437720)
Well, that sounds pretty accurate: today's economies are so thoroughly dominated by the interests of monopoly capital that it takes a long-running bubble/overheat to actually raise wages.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by harryh on Sunday July 01, 2018 @05:34PM (#17437747)
today's economies are so thoroughly dominated by the interests of monopoly capital

How do you measure this?

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by Camillo on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:21PM (#17439125)
I have tried to compile a list of the mysterious expressions used in the article:

- "labour markets have tightened"

- "unemployment rate"

- "unemployment was much higher"

- "fall in union membership"

- "rising offshoring"

- "outsourcing"

- "workers’ bargaining power"

- "tightening in labour markets might yet boost workers’ bargaining power" "as was the case during the late 1990s and late 2000s"

- "number of part-time workers who want full-time jobs"

- "unemployment rates that are far higher"

- "pockets of slack might constrain wages everywhere"

- "firms that are struggling to find workers"

- "If slack were eliminated everywhere, pay might rise faster"

- "boost real wages by running labour markets hotter"

Now, I'm no economist, but the picture I'm getting is that they are describing labor relations as a "market", where prices (wages) are affected by demand (companies seeking employees) and supply (workers seeking jobs). So the idea would be that when the supply of potential workers increases (because unemployment is high, or because new sources of labor are available, e.g. by outsourcing and offshoring) that tends to drive wages down, and when the supply decreases it tends to drive wages up.

The fly in the ointment of my interpretation is that there is at least one other obvious source of increased labor supply in rich countries, yet the Economist does not mention it anywhere. So I must be misunderstanding it, after all.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by jwatte on Sunday July 01, 2018 @07:06PM (#17438210)
Reducing Union power probably counts as "stacking against workers," as does a minimum wage that is not enough to actually live on. But there are much deeper injustices.

The zip code you're born in predicts future success better than any other attribute, including IQ!

If your parents can take you in when your business attempt falls, you're in a different world than of your parents are a single mother of three, through no fault of your own.

Aristocracy is hereditary, always has been, seems to remain that way. This, is what "stacked" really means.

Whether you think this is actually bad for America or not is a different question.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by digaozao on Tuesday July 03, 2018 @07:32AM (#17449277)
I am reading "skin in the game" from Nassim Taleb. He makes a lot of points against journalits or economists. And it seems right many times. They do not have real contact with the things they talk about.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by csomar on Sunday July 01, 2018 @12:55PM (#17436349)
Oil is an example of you can have a volatile commodity despite being very big, traded and needed. This goes out of the understanding of simple reporters and economists who simplify the world to the simple equations they were taught in econ 101.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by niccolop on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:21PM (#17436790)
This is why I stopped reading The Economist years ago. The lack of byline in my opinion allows that type of sloppy writing.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by tormeh on Sunday July 01, 2018 @04:48PM (#17437475)
What do you read instead?
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by abhiminator on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:07PM (#17436406)
I absolutely agree with you. This is a perfect example of superficial reporting. Surprised to see this from The Economist.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:18PM (#17436470)
I think it might be worse than superficial. They're trying to trick readers into thinking that it contains more information than it does. Not cricket, Economist.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by nunb on Sunday July 01, 2018 @09:27PM (#17438746)
It's been working fine for decades! Even through enormous bad calls like their early noughties call on oil.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by oligopoly on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:20PM (#17436474)
Happens in every field. Compare what is said to reported or if you have knowledge of something, frankly could be anything sports, business etc, how poorly it's reported in the press.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by adpirz on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:10PM (#17436420)
As a subscriber, I’d say this is very standard for the Economist.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by Emma_Goldman on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:15PM (#17436447)
No, this is entirely typical of The Economist. Everything I ever read there is amateurish and superficial.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by j-c-hewitt on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:18PM (#17436469)
Someone's gotta explain to me what "structural changes in the economy" means. Does it mean that the economy is like a big building and we added another floor? Is the economy now like one of those whacky nu-architecture prizewinning buildings that are shaped like giant globs of play-do?

Or is it one of those phrases that can be used to mean absolutely anything at all?

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by Aeolos on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:33PM (#17436850)
> Or is it one of those phrases that can be used to mean absolutely anything at all?

The meaning depends a bit on the political orientation of whoever is uttering the phrase. In the neoliberal nomenclature presently used throughout Europe, "structural changes" are an euphemism for cuts to public spending (healthcare, social security, pensions, services), reduction of worker rights and wage depression.

For example, France is currently undergoing "structural changes". Ireland, Spain, Greece underwent "structural changes" as a response to the global economic crisis of 2008.

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dalbasal on Sunday July 01, 2018 @01:28PM (#17436518)
That's exactly the point, it could mean anything.

In this case, I think "structural" is a euphemism for "equilibrium state," what would happen in the economy if everything stays as it is now long enough for things to settle down.

It's nonspecific even for a euphemism. "Structure" could mean "the type of products now made in the economy." It could mean "the fact that labour markets are internationalised," as the article stops short of alluding to a paragraph earlier. It could mean "the fact that we the economy is made of fewer, larger companies."

Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by superbaconman on Sunday July 01, 2018 @03:10PM (#17437016)
Probably changes to finance law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_law
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by dajohnson89 on Sunday July 01, 2018 @07:43PM (#17438362)
you succinctly described what bothers me about reading the economist.
Re:The rich world needs higher real wage growth by saas_co_de on Sunday July 01, 2018 @02:31PM (#17436845)
Economist is not economics reporting. It is political advocacy.