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Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Friday June 29, 2018 @08:00PM (#17428755)
It’s fairly easy to make a case that Japan is a good example of what the stage before post-scarcity looks like though. Yes there is poverty, but it’s unusual.
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:25PM (#17429170)
Maybe if you just stepped out of a time machine from the 1980s.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2015/04/04/struggling

> Last year, the Japanese government recorded relative poverty rates of 16%—defined as the share of the population living on less than half the national median income. That is the highest on record. Poverty levels have been growing at a rate of 1.3% a year since the mid-1980s. On the same definition, a study by the OECD in 2011 ranked Japan sixth from the bottom among its 34 mostly rich members. Bookshops advertise a slew of bestsellers on how to survive on an annual income of under ¥2m ($16,700), a poverty line below which millions of Japanese now live.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by codedokode on Saturday June 30, 2018 @01:23AM (#17429602)
> poverty ... defined as the share of the population living on less than half the national median income

This is not necessarily poverty, it is just a measure of income inequality. If we read Wikipedia [1]:

> In Japan, relative poverty is defined as a state at which the income of a household is at or below half of the median household income ... According to Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the mean household net-adjusted disposable income for Japan is US$23,458.

Half of that is $11,700 and while living on that can be tough, I am not sure if that can be called poverty. Also, there is a minimal wage of 736 yen/hour (in the poorest regions) which is 117760 yen/month or $1063. So if a household has an income of $1000/month it means that one of two people is slacking off instead of working.

For comparison, in Estonia minimum monthly wage is 500 Euro (585 USD), in Russia it is $286 in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg and about $150 in other regions. Earning $1000 a month looks like a luxury for most people outside of two largest cities.

It is also important to remember that the climate is much warmer in Japan than in Russia so the the life should be cheaper, you don't have to pay for warm clothes and central heating.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Japan

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @07:15AM (#17430395)
The federal poverty line in the US for a single person is about $12k (or $15k in Alaska) and it's higher for families. I am quite sure that living in a country like Japan, where the cost of living is not cheap, on $11,000 pear year can be called poverty. Also, "slacking off"? Have you considered that perhaps one or more people cannot find a job or is unable to work? Or that the poor often do not have full-time jobs with steady hours? Come on.

The cost of living in Estonia is much lower than Japan. You're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. The US comparison is more apt. Think about what your life would be like if you made the same amount of money as you do now but lived in Thailand (or if they did the same for the average Thai person) and you might understand why they choose to measure poverty this way.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @07:45AM (#17430491)
It depends on what's included in society, though.

In Japan, you get healthcare and pay as low as 5% of the cost of care. That's a pretty significant difference.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:20AM (#17430605)
Certainly not having to worry about ruin from medical bills is one thing making life better for the poor, but that doesn't make being poor pleasant.
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:23AM (#17430618)
Of course not.

Are you implying that a post-scarcity society will be pleasant for everyone? I don't think that.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:43AM (#17430679)
If you have desperately poor people who struggle to afford life's basics I don't know in what meaningful sense it's a "post-scarcity" society.
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @04:19AM (#17429997)
Definitions of poverty based on relative incomes will mean there are always people in poverty, by definition.

If we contemplate a post scarcity world, one needs to consider absolute measures like life expectancy and maybe education levels or something like that.

Not arguing that everyone has it easy in Japan, just that by these types of metrics it’s one of the closest places we have to look at if we want to think about post-scarcity.

I’d note this quote from the article: “The country has long prided itself on ensuring that none of its citizens falls between the social cracks. Japan’s orderly, slum-free neighbourhoods seem to confirm that. Street crime, even in Kotobuki, is minuscule.“

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @07:12AM (#17430387)
Well, that's nonsense. Just because street crime is low doesn't mean people aren't poor. If you visit Tokyo you can easily encounter homeless people sleeping on the street; if these people haven't fallen through the cracks who has?
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:21AM (#17430611)
I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

No one - least of all me - is arguing that there aren't poor people.

My point is that this is what a predecessor to a post-scarcity society could look like.

Do you think there won't be poor people in a post-scarcity society? Or there won't be people who fall though the cracks in that society?

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:44AM (#17430685)
> Do you think there won't be poor people in a post-scarcity society?

I think if there are you can't really call it one. America is the richest country on Earth so if it's just about how you theoretically could have a society free of want if you totally reconfigured who has what then I guess we're on the cusp too! Great news!

I genuinely have no idea what you think a post-scarcity society is.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:36PM (#17431450)
I genuinely have no idea what you think a post-scarcity society is.

Where society has enough for all and attempt to allocate it in a way that all gets what they need.

Japan is about as close to that as exists. Yes, people fall though the cracks, but the same will happen in post-scarcity society. People will refuse to live by society's rules so they won't get their universal income, or they will have mental illness and unable to arrange their life to avoid suffering.

That isn't dissimilar to Japan. No one is staving to death, people get basic healthcare (mostly), but there are still people who society fails - and it isn't a lack of resources that causes that in Japan.

Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Saturday June 30, 2018 @12:40PM (#17431467)
Fifteen percent of the population is poor because they're layabouts and ne'er-do-wells? You're approaching this with blinders on.
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by nl on Saturday June 30, 2018 @08:41PM (#17433450)
Hu? How the hell do you get that from what I said?
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by emodendroket on Sunday July 01, 2018 @11:15AM (#17435890)
You suggest that poverty is happening in a "post-scarcity society" because people are mentally ill or don't play by the rules, and that Japan is more or less what you have in mind by a "post-scarcity society." Also we have the statistic that 15% of the Japanese are in poverty. So by synthesizing all these we get my (admittedly glib) gloss on your ideas.
Re:A Japanese cyber-security expert who defended basic decen... by rwallace on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:44PM (#17429054)
> It’s fairly easy to make a case that Japan is a good example of what the stage before post-scarcity looks like though. Yes there is poverty, but it’s unusual.

Is that true? Everything else I've heard about Japan says poverty is common and severe there.