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Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by threatofrain on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:42AM (#17417806)
I thought there's some pretty robust discussion about people who feel shafted by diversity initiatives. I do feel that anyone who speaks in a hot-headed way gets penalized on Hacker News, and I think that's great. There were a few big recent HN discussions on the matter -- are there clear instances of what you mean on the whole?
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by TaylorAlexander on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:49AM (#17417897)
It seems to me that there’s some middle area where the person doesn’t understand Bay Area culture but they’re not being rude or hot headed, and yet their genuine questions get downvoted.

I do think there’s some kind of “you can’t discuss that” attitudes on here about certain topics. Diversity stuff is an area I can imagine reasonable and even good comments getting downvoted. Sadly I don’t have any sources, but this is my intuition after reading HN regularly.

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by adbachman on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:25PM (#17418258)
> middle area where the person doesn’t understand Bay Area culture... > genuine questions get downvoted

The problem is these "genuine questions," for other people, are received as: bad faith questions, "sea lioning", poorly researched questions (e.g., simple query would find the answer), microagressions, dog whistles, sock puppet arguments, or other incendiary social media argument techniques.

Whether every instance of "hi, I'm new here, why is affirmative action a good thing?" is actually bad faith, etc. is irrelevant.

Diversity as a topic gets downvoted, flagged, and removed because the heat keeps happening on those threads. Regardless of which side you occupy or support or even if you claim to support no side at all, it consistently produces uncharitable and unproductive discussion.

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by s73v3r_ on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:33PM (#17418355)
There are a good amount of people who are "asking" those questions in bad faith. And, after a while, it gets exhausting to those who get bombarded with those questions. And those doing that in bad faith know it. It's kinda like a DDOS attack on them.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by nailer on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:43AM (#17423245)
>> middle area where the person doesn’t understand Bay Area culture... genuine questions get downvoted

>The problem is these "genuine questions," for other people, are received as: bad faith questions, "sea lioning", poorly researched questions (e.g., simple query would find the answer), microagressions, dog whistles, sock puppet arguments, or other incendiary social media argument techniques.

Those things - I don't understand or currently agree with your view, so it's a "bad faith question" - are Bay Area culture.

In the rest of the adult world, it's OK to not share your opinion before asking questions.

[dead]
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by dang on Thursday June 28, 2018 @02:10PM (#17419178)
Please (re-)read and follow the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Comments like this rightly get downvoted and flagged for being unsubstantive, flamebait, ideological battle, and going on about downvotes. Then of course people complain that it's their politics which are being censored.

[dead]
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by TaylorAlexander on Thursday June 28, 2018 @05:55PM (#17420812)
I disagree. I think a lot of people not familiar with the term micro aggression think it’s all stupid. But I have been feeling as though I understand better what people mean when they use the term micro aggression. They’re talking about people being rude, inconsiderate, or mean and not even realizing it. And the term micro aggression is used to communicate that they feel uncomfortable and they want the other to recognize that and change their behavior.

I think if someone is making you feel uncomfortable you have every right to tell them. Now if they decide not to change that’s up to them, and you two may choose not to have a relationship moving forward, but it’s okay to share how you feel and ask for change.

However some people decide they are the victim of aggression and they then yell at the other person, and that’s obviously absurd. If you don’t want people to be aggressive at you, don’t be aggressive at them.

But what you’re proposing is that, when someone is feeling uncomfortable, we should make them more uncomfortable. I think that’s shitty behavior and I don’t believe it is helpful. Do you?

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by belorn on Friday June 29, 2018 @06:29AM (#17423652)
What should we do when someone is feeling uncomfortable simply because someone else is has an opposing political view?

Feeling disgust at an political view is a well established medical phenomenon. It trigger the same brain region as smelling rotten food, garbage and contaminated water. How would we go about to prevent triggering this reaction?

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by iosDrone on Thursday June 28, 2018 @04:20PM (#17420142)
What I'm most excited about with Kennedy's replacement is seeing affirmative action finally get the axe. Many, many people think that the erosion of meritocracy is a bad thing even for the groups it's intended to benefit.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by s73v3r_ on Thursday June 28, 2018 @05:25PM (#17420606)
Those people probably also believe that we have or ever had a meritocracy, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by iosDrone on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:58PM (#17429096)
I really have a hard time coming up with a field outside of pro sports that is more meritocratic than tech. The assault on that in the name of "diversity" is morally repulsive, and I'll be very happy to see racial discrimination outlawed.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by creep on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:17PM (#17418191)
I recently wrote a comment in response to a post here with the title, "Why Women Don't Code?". The post itself was, I think, on the front page and received 104 upvotes. My comment was along the lines of, "we don't know why women don't code (preference vs culture) but [anecdote] and I personally lean towards the preference angle." My comment was down voted twice but afterwards appeared to gain traction with more than a dozen upvotes.

That topic in particular (gender in STEM, feminist topics, etc.) I find is usually a no-go zone anywhere else on the net unless you have a specific opinion abut it, but on HN it wasn't censored and I felt comfortable expressing an opinion.

It's sometimes hit and miss. I think sometimes posts on certain hot-topic political issues are downvoted because many people come here for tech related stuff and don't want to see anything else-- especially that which leads to an unwinable argument.

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by dang on Thursday June 28, 2018 @02:09PM (#17419168)
> the person doesn’t understand Bay Area culture

It's a common misconception, but HN users are overwhelmingly not in the Bay Area. When I looked at this a few months ago, the number was about 10%. (Actually between 5% and 14% depending on how you count.)

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by _emacsomancer_ on Thursday June 28, 2018 @03:02PM (#17419557)
What about if you weight by activity? Does that significantly affect the percentage?
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by dang on Thursday June 28, 2018 @04:39PM (#17420284)
It does somewhat, hence the range I mentioned. For posting submissions and comments it was 10.9%.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pmarreck on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:15PM (#17418168)
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:56AM (#17417972)
Downvotes aren't 'censorship'.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @11:59AM (#17418005)
In and of themselves, no. However, I think an argument could be made for the visual suppression of posts, which occurs after too many downvotes have been given, being a form of soft censorship. The information is still broadcast but it's made impossible to read unless I copy/paste it or tilt my screen to an extreme angle.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:01PM (#17418030)
Or you can just click on the comment timestamp. If downvotes are 'censorship', so are upvotes.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:54PM (#17418564)
Upvotes do not suppress the readability of comments. That workarounds exist is beyond the point.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @12:57PM (#17418581)
Sure they do. They move other comments off the page entirely.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by JackCh on Thursday June 28, 2018 @03:10PM (#17419630)
Maybe it's indicative of which sort of conversations I choose to participate in, but I rarely see comment sections go beyond the page fold.

Supposing we take your argument seriously though, comments past the page fold which also have their contrast lowered to the point of illegibility are certainly censored even moreso.

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @03:24PM (#17419736)
It only takes a dozen short comments or so even on a giant screen. And yes, almost everything is censorship if you redefine censorship to mean any random irksome thing.

Incidentally, I do think the way the comment fading works is pointedly user-hating and dumb (it's traditionally dumb, though!), but it's not really censorship. More generally, since we're talking about taking things seriously, framing forum irritants as some sort of oppression is a solid way to ensure few people take you seriously.

Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by JackCh on Friday June 29, 2018 @04:13AM (#17423145)
I don't think that describing a system which deliberately suppresses the legibility of posts you've already scrolled to see as 'soft censorship' is an unreasonable "redefinition" of censorship. If you disagree, I suppose I consider you unreasonable.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Friday June 29, 2018 @10:49AM (#17424821)
Very well. I have added 'soft unreasonable' to my profile.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by jrs95 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @05:40PM (#17420702)
No, because you can still read things that have been heavily downvoted. Flagging on the other hand can actually make things unreadable.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:39PM (#17421045)
Flagging doesn't make things unreadable.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by jrs95 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:41PM (#17421063)
Interesting. Thanks for correcting me on that. I thought I had seen that before; but perhaps that always requires moderator intervention.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by pvg on Thursday June 28, 2018 @06:55PM (#17421139)
There's a 'showdead' flag you can turn on in the prefs, that will show you stuff that has been flagged to death. When in the very rare cases something gets moderated in a comment (like removing someone's private info), there's a moderator comment saying so.
Re:Most Americans Think Facebook and Twitter Censor Their Po... by jrs95 on Thursday June 28, 2018 @07:37PM (#17421346)
I thought I had turned that on but I probably forgot to click “update” afterwards. Thanks!