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Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by kodablah on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:25AM (#17392642)
One wonders if a CDN might advertise, "we promise once your data enters our network at our edge locations outside of the US, it does not traverse any AT&T networks while reaching your server inside the US". Same with cloud companies' private networks across regions.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by lev99 on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:50AM (#17393334)
If your communication is encrypted it shouldn't matter if it passes AT&T networks.

Either

A. Popular and well known encryption algorithms are not broken by the NSA, and your communication is private.

B. Popular and well known encryption algorithms are broken by the NSA, but the fact that it's broken is top secret and the state will not do any actions that revel the secret. Your communications are not safe, and while what you communicate might make you the target of an investigation (if you're an appealing enough target), the communications will not be directly used against you in court.

EDIT: There is a third option, that your communication is being stored until the encryption algorithm is broken or computation reaches a point where brute force is possible (quantum computers). Long term storage of encrypted communication is only economically feasible for a small subset of all encrypted communication, so it's only a concern for targeted individuals where the communication will be relevant to the state decades from now.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by kodablah on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:32PM (#17395083)
> If your communication is encrypted it shouldn't matter if it passes AT&T networks.

That assumes metadata is irrelevant. The destination, time of day, and volume of the traffic all have value separately and especially so when together. The destination can be masked if you control both sides and AT&T is a go between, but timing issues are subject to analysis unless you are a large enough player to give safety in numbers or you push noise across your pipes.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by fulafel on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @12:59AM (#17397965)
Hear, hear. The stream of encrypted packets that makes up someone's web browsing traffic is a very telling one and transactions of various web apps have telling signatures, which can be then correlated with eg social media updates or other signals that ripple to the target's contacts.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by mirimir on Monday June 25, 2018 @06:34PM (#17396410)
It's not that hard to anonymize metadata.

Just decide how thoroughly it must be done, and do what it takes. Plus a safety factor.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by throwaway2048 on Monday June 25, 2018 @07:52PM (#17396855)
It is extremely hard to anonymize metadata, thats part of what makes its capture and analysis so insidious.

Please tell me how i anonymize the metadata of where my cellphone is located, which the telco harvests from towers its connected to.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by Spooky23 on Monday June 25, 2018 @09:39PM (#17397282)
Put it in a bag, and don’t use it.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by mirimir on Monday June 25, 2018 @09:28PM (#17397251)
Cellphones are a pain, that's true. I was mainly thinking about Internet metadata.

If you really care, one option is having multiple phones, under different identities. Each one only gets used in a distinct set of locations, for distinct projects, with distinct recipients. When not in use, you store phones in labeled Faraday bags. That is, compartmentalization.

Another option is to nuke the radio in your phone, use only WiFi and VPNs for internet access, and use hosted cellphones from multiple providers. You can still compartmentalize, but need only carry one phone. But you depend on WiFi access.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by 394549 on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:10PM (#17393517)
> If your communication is encrypted it shouldn't matter if it passes AT&T networks.

IIRC, the signals intelligence agencies like the NSA learn almost as much from traffic analysis (e.g. who's talking to who and when) and metadata than from actual message content. Mere encryption itself often doesn't protect much from that.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by imglorp on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:41PM (#17393750)
I'd argue that metadata is more important than content. It enables suspicion-by-association lines of inquiry. Once you know whos' involved in a conversation, it's much easier to target them for closer attention, such as hacking their machine or rubber-hose cryptography, both of which nullify any crypto you might have used.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by JumpCrisscross on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:14PM (#17393982)
> I'd argue that metadata is more important than content

Isn't metadata, practically speaking, a subset of content? (If you have the latter, you almost certainly also have the former?)

Metadata is more useful than content if you're capacity constrained, technologically or legally, in collection and/or analysis.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by AndrewKemendo on Monday June 25, 2018 @02:07PM (#17394383)
Isn't metadata, practically speaking, a subset of content?

Importantly to how we think about communication, no.

Metadata is the signature that accompanies or encapsulates content, viewable to the world. You can completely conceal content, through encryption for example, but you can't completely conceal metadata.

In other words there must be a physical exchange of energy somewhere (communication), and metadata tells you something about how the exchange happened, irrespective and ignorant of what the content is.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by schoen on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:10PM (#17394883)
> you can't completely conceal metadata

You can do it with a very high cost (in overhead, latency, and availability) by having a large number of people all send and receive messages, on a fixed or randomized schedule, exceeding their maximum possible amount of communication with one another. Then someone monitoring the network knows that each of the participants in this system could have communicated with any other participant, but not whether or not the communication took place.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by AndrewKemendo on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:39PM (#17395153)
Even ignoring the practicality part, it becomes a timing game, because "empty" messages - even if they were filled with unintelligible "random" hex - would traverse the network differently than ones with variable length/size content and would be able to be filtered out pretty quickly.

The bottom line is that you are going to leave a signature of some sort through communications - the question is, can you properly build a comms system system that is functional within the limits of your risk/reward criteria.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by schoen on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:53PM (#17395283)
> Even ignoring the practicality part, it becomes a timing game, because "empty" messages - even if they were filled with unintelligible "random" hex - would traverse the network differently than ones with variable length/size content and would be able to be filtered out pretty quickly.

To eliminate the statistical observability of metadata, the padding needs to reach or exceed the maximum capacity of the channel. So you can't have people sending more messages than the padded channel permits per time period. In your example, packets "with variable length/size content" would need to be absolutely prohibited, or else all packets' length would need to be randomized, and message data would need to be sent following strictly the same distribution as padding messages.

For example, you and I could have a rule of exchanging exactly 1 MB of data per day, at a specified time, every day. Then an observer wouldn't be able to tell whether, on a particular day, we had actually communicated something to each other or just allowed the padding data to go out. Clearly in this system we're not ever allowed to use it to transmit more than 1 MB per day, without destroying the metadata unobservability property. An attacker still knows that you and I are part of a system that offers us an otherwise unobservable channel, but not when we do or don't make use of that channel.

There are lots of variants that also allow many-to-many messaging, again at a high cost in overhead, latency, and availability.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by jancsika on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @01:16AM (#17398023)
> Clearly in this system we're not ever allowed to use it to transmit more than 1 MB per day, without destroying the metadata unobservability property.

You're also not ever allowed to transmit links or anything else that goads the user into fetching a remote resource in response to a message.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by 394549 on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:58PM (#17395737)
>>>> but you can't completely conceal metadata.

> For example, you and I could have a rule of exchanging exactly 1 MB of data per day, at a specified time, every day.

Depending on the size and popularity of the relay network, the fact the two parties are connected to it could be valuable metadata.

If you really wanted to minimize the amount of metadata to something that's almost useless, you'd probably need to use something like a continuously-operating broadcast numbers station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by AndrewKemendo on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:59PM (#17395747)
On it's face such a scheme seems theoretically robust, but for frequency correlation only. I'd be curious if in practice it would be possible to eliminate all other variability though, of which there are many. For example I'm unaware of any true solution to latency triangulation.

My hunch is that it wouldn't be possible, and there would be a side-channel vulnerability somewhere.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by schoen on Monday June 25, 2018 @05:01PM (#17395756)
I'm not proposing a low-latency interactive approach, so latency triangulation shouldn't apply. In my example mechanism, we always have to wait a full day until sending any reply, so there's no event that an attacker can use to measure latency from.

Edit: the beginning of this research is the Dining Cryptographers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dining_cryptographers_problem

Although Chaum's solution has terrible availability properties, it's unconditionally secure against outsiders!

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by lern_too_spel on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:49PM (#17393804)
There is no evidence of this. If you have a system outside the US sending encrypted data to a system inside the US, all anybody can see is that these two systems are talking to each other. They can't see whose communication is inside that encrypted data to tell who is talking to whom and when.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by colechristensen on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:02PM (#17393891)
Encryption is irrelevant if the third parties (google, facebook, apple, etc.) are willing to give up private keys or data in response to requests or secret court orders. The same is true if the devices you own contain backdoors or exploits specifically designed for or not-fixed for the NSA.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by lev99 on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:04PM (#17393899)
In the case that the data is being stored by third parties (google, facebook, apple) or insecure devices then it's also irrelevant if the data passes AT&T's network or not.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by ctrl-j on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:16PM (#17394008)
Well.. supposedly AT&T is the capture, right? So passing the AT&T network would increase the odds of your packets being read.. right?
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by tbihl on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:59PM (#17394329)
In the cases that your traffic is unencrypted, yes, but that should be rare enough that you worry about it each time it happens.

Bigger in this case is the pattern of life rendered by just inspecting headers. And they can get a lot of headers sitting on these ATT locations.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by dethswatch on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:52PM (#17393824)
> the communications will not be directly used against you >in court.

Directly. But via parallel construction...

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by lev99 on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:03PM (#17393893)
Yeah, gathering evidence not admissible in court really helps the investigation find evidence that is.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by mtgx on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:14PM (#17393986)
Exactly. Once they know exactly what someone has done and how, it's relatively easy for them to find alternative means of "suspecting" that person of doing the crime and convince the judge to give them a warrant for exactly what they've already found through the illegal surveillance operation.

I wish judges and defense attorneys would catch on to these tactics more quickly. The rate at which the prosecutors/FBI invent new tricks to fool the courts and defense attorneys so far seems to far outpace the judge and the defense attorneys' understanding of what's even happening.

Take cell site simulators, for instance - the FBI has used those in secret for more than a decade before they were uncovered at all, and then it took another decade for judges here and there to catch-up and start requiring warrants for such operations.

And this goes for a lot of FBI's "investigative techniques", too, which are often illegal, but what judge is really going to know the difference between those highly technical operations?

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by frankharv on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:59PM (#17395749)
All this assumes the judiciary is fair.

I feel otherwise.

When Microsoft was about to be broken up an appellate judge overruled the prior judge. That judge went on to be the FISA secret court judge.

Remember that the NSA Key was discovered around the same time[0].

So Microsoft was in bed with NSA prior to 1999 with a crypto key backdoor.

They were helped by an future FISA judge.(Does that background look like a national security judge?)

When I look at the Judges resume I can help but to wonder if she was an NSA plant the whole time.[1]

The Commerce Department is a frequent cover for the NSA.

I have to assume they use deep cover people all around us.

[0]https://www.heise.de/tp/features/How-NSA-access-was-built-in...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colleen_Kollar-Kotelly

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by Latteland on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @09:36PM (#17405192)
I am skeptical of source #0. I thought that idea of nsa keys had been debunked. At least that source is not complete. Someone found a string 'nsakey' and they talk about analyzing the 'entropy of the source code'. What does that actually mean in technical terms that make sense to software engineers? I'm too stupid to understand that I guess. Sure, it would make sense for the nsa to try to do this. But it wouldn't make as much sense for microsoft to do it. Linux is out there now. I used to work at microsoft, and our product had a secured special bug database where we recorded security issues. We didn't want random people in the company to know that you could make your login name do string injection was an example of something we had there.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by walterbell on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:44PM (#17394223)
> I wish judges and defense attorneys would catch on to these tactics more quickly.

Is there a tech-law publication which targets judges and defense attorneys?

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by dethswatch on Monday June 25, 2018 @07:21PM (#17396658)
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by bitexploder on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:56PM (#17397759)
Most traffic is HTTP/S. I would bet a decent amount of dollars the NSA can transparently MiTM any common CA certs. Look at what a mess the trusted roots are.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by RaceWon on Monday June 25, 2018 @02:10PM (#17394401)
It could always be used as leverage if the appropriate situation arose.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by ianamartin on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:51PM (#17393821)
We need a word for pointlessly bringing up quantum computation to prop up a vituosically weak set of arguments. Like Godwin’s Law, but more worse-er.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by lev99 on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:06PM (#17393920)
Quantum computation changes the complexity of brute forcing common encryption algorithms. It seems very plausible that actors are storing high value encrypted messages for future decoding in case QC enters the realm of possibility.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by krylon on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @08:42AM (#17400070)
I vaguely remember reading that storing encrypted messages just in case it might become possible to decrypt them later on has been common practice in intelligence services for decades (if not longer).
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by saas_co_de on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:06PM (#17393918)
Every country in the world does this. The German's at least are open and honest about it.

"It said the BND, a partner of the US National Security Agency (NSA), has placed so-called Y-piece prisms into its data-carrying fibre optic cables that give it an unfiltered and complete copy of the data flow."

https://www.thelocal.de/20180531/german-spies-can-keep-monit...

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by ancarda on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:34AM (#17392707)
Couldn't the NSA start working with other ISPs than AT&T?

I'd really like to see CDNs like CloudFlare start requiring Cloud <--> Origin encryption; e.g. what CloudFlare calls "Full SSL" -- https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/200170416-W.... Right now, you can do TLS termination ("Flexible SSL"), which end-users aren't aware of -- they see a padlock -- and I'm sure the NSA doesn't mind.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by hammock on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:22AM (#17393086)
>Couldn't the NSA start working with other ISPs than AT&T?

They do. They work with all of them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-a...

AT&T just happens to have the oldest relationships and the largest infrastructure.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by syshum on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:39PM (#17393732)
>Right now, you can do TLS termination ("Flexible SSL")

Which sane people call Man in the Middle and should not be allowed at all. I have seen people doing this Flexiable SSL with Credit Card data and other PII believing it is "secure"

Cloudflare may have started out with security in mind but their new services centered around centralization of key services (dns) and this kind of security breaking product means IMO they are a net negative in the world of Information Security

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by AgentME on Monday June 25, 2018 @05:29PM (#17395968)
Even Cloudflare's "Full SSL" mode is a man in the middle: Cloudflare is the man in the middle who sees the plaintext of connections going through them.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by jstarfish on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:19PM (#17394029)
It has its uses though, even if it's misused.

It's an easy box to check to pretend to offer HTTPS so you don't get penalized by Google. Before Let's Encrypt there was no free way to get a legit cert for your cat blog. Faking it via Flexible SSL was the next best thing.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by syshum on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:45PM (#17395651)
This is false, there have always been ways to get a free DV cert, lets encrypt made it easier

Furhter before Lets Encrypt you would not have gotten dinged by google, Google only went that path when wide spread DV Certs where freely avaliable

Further still, the minor costs per year to get a paid DV cert should be factor when choosing to host your own content versus paying a 3rd party to do it, many of those 3rd parties provided SSL as part of their services.

There is zero need for a Man in the Middle for SSL,

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by kodablah on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:57AM (#17392886)
Sure they could, but one might hope the AT&T's eroded trust would serve as caution towards other overly cooperative companies. Or encourage companies to fight in court to be given the transparency allowances they desire to let the rest of us know they are legally compelled to do this and in no way do they agree or are doing anything beyond what's required.

Granted, like FB issues and others, we in this community need to realize that most users simply don't care (even many b2b ones) and not get upset when our users don't move their dollars on principle. For us it's a big deal, for many there are real, harmful issues going on in the world and volume collection of data by companies and governments is not one of them. And we can't make it so despite the deluge of articles by a supportive mass media.

EDIT: To clarify, you mentioned "other ISPs" but I want to be clear I'm talking about private pipes and not residential internet though I know they are often shared.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by enos on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:21AM (#17393079)
AT&T's cooperation with NSA has been public since 2004. It doesn't seem to have much of an effect on them.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by dbcurtis on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:34AM (#17392702)
Given how peering is implemented among backbone providers, I don't think that is technically possible today.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by kodablah on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:12AM (#17393018)
If peering had more participants, companies could choose their peering agreements for server-to-server data (i.e. non-residential, not-public-internet) on private pipes only with companies who make the similar no-AT&T promise downstream. One way or another, the principled economic squeeze needs to be there instead of waiting on public policy.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by coldtea on Monday June 25, 2018 @11:19AM (#17393060)
>One wonders if a CDN might advertise,

Yes, but they could also be lying about it.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by judge2020 on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:02PM (#17394812)
Wouldn't it be easy to traceroute between the CDN and your server, or the CDN and your house to see if it hits servers that WHOIS to at&t?
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by jlgaddis on Monday June 25, 2018 @04:08PM (#17395381)
From a network engineering perspective, it's pretty easy not to decrement the TTL (keeping devices from "appearing" in a traceroute).

Hell, this is pretty much the norm where MPLS is concerned. Your packet may hop through a dozen routers along its way without showing up in a traceroute -- you just see it go in one side (then it goes through a dozen routers) and you see it come out the other side.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by coldtea on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @03:27AM (#17398567)
>Wouldn't it be easy to traceroute between the CDN and your server, or the CDN and your house to see if it hits servers that WHOIS to at&t?

Wouldn't be trivial for any other telco (whether foreign or domestic) than at&t to tap the data and lie about it too?

And it doesn't have to show up in the traceroute (they could mirror the traffic, etc)

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by thrillgore on Monday June 25, 2018 @01:39PM (#17394172)
OVH already markets its data centers as operating "outside of any reach of US infrastructure."
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by chrissnell on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:46PM (#17395222)
I'd rather go up against the US Government over illegal monitoring, where at least you have some form of due process, than many other countries.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by IncRnd on Monday June 25, 2018 @05:59PM (#17396188)
Unfortunately, traffic patterns are not straightforward, which can be seen by performing a traceroute to an arbitrary destination. How would a cdn enforce such traversal restrictions, when att is much of the internet?
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by subway on Monday June 25, 2018 @10:43AM (#17392767)
Trouble is, internet exchanges are often flat insecure layer 2 networks that operate on trust. Anyone on that network can suddenly decide to advertise anyone else's address space, and start receiving traffic.
Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by walrus01 on Monday June 25, 2018 @12:18PM (#17393583)
Shitty IXes, maybe.

At a proper one a single IP address belonging to the exchange, which will be assigned to the router port of one member, is only allowed to appear from a specific single MAC address, and specific port on the ix switch, which corresponds with a physical fiber cross connect that matches a specific patch panel port.

Re:The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities by notadoc on Monday June 25, 2018 @03:30PM (#17395070)
I would be surprised if it was not every network, in every country, so trying to avoid a single network is unlikely to do much.