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Re:GitLab 11 released by freditup on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:17AM (#17379516)
I'm not offended at all by using the word "master" where it makes sense. However, as a role for users, is sounds sort of odd and a bit authoritarian. I think "maintainer" is a nicer choice regardless of any political-correctness driven reasoning.
Re:GitLab 11 released by cheald on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:01AM (#17379778)
If we're talking about user roles for users with the implicit implication that it indicates a position relative to others, I'd say "owner" is worse.

In this context, though, the subject is the repository, an inanimate piece of property, not any other user. In that context, I'd argue that both "owner" and "master" are descriptive and very difficult to interpret offensively unless you're going out of your way to interpret them as such.

There are subtle differences in connotation between "master" and "maintainer", too - think "king" and "steward", apologies to Tolkien - it's not like they're synonyms and a swap is just being done in-kind. I think there's actually a case to be made that "maintainer" is a better label for the role, given the existing context of a project maintainer being one who has administrative control over it (and the existing "owner" root role), but to change the label with the reasoning that "master is exclusive, so we picked up a thesaurus" isn't going to pass the sniff test for a lot of people. A slightly more tactful approach of "we decided this better describes the role as it already applies to modern team organization" would have worked just fine.

Re:GitLab 11 released by kochthesecond on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:10AM (#17380323)
I don't agree with the reasoning around the usage of the Master, but I am happy with Maintainer which seems like a better word.
Re:GitLab 11 released by sytse on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:16AM (#17379509)
In databases master slave is replaced by primary secondary. I think being inclusive means removing obstacles you might not see yourself.
Re:GitLab 11 released by colechristensen on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:31AM (#17379865)
Being inclusive doesn't mean thinking up ways yourself or others might possibly ought to be offended and avoiding them.

This sort of overoptimistic "inclusiveness" is the kind of thing that makes the people who doubt much more certain of their skepticism and should be considered harmful.

Re:GitLab 11 released by BigJono on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:58AM (#17380450)
I'd also argue that it's exclusive of people who dislike arbitrary impediments to their dev work. Words like master and slave have semantic meaning going back decades in computing. Avoiding their use introduces ambiguity and makes everyone's job harder. We should be striving to reduce the number of synonyms for things, not introducing more for questionable reasons.
Re:GitLab 11 released by zapita on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:34AM (#17380028)
> might possibly ought to be offended

Have you considered the possibility that people other than you do find the terms offensive, and have asked for them to be changed?

> This [...] is the kind of thing that makes the people who doubt much more certain of their skepticism and should be considered harmful.

Those of us who live in the US are painfully familiar with this line of thinking... "you better change your ways if you want to convince me about this whole human decency thing! I'm still on the fence about being an asshole, and it's all your fault".

Guess what, nobody cares about your skepticism, because you're not in a position to decide on this issue, thankfully. Nobody is trying to change your mind, either. All that we ask, as a society, is that you keep your intolerance within the scope of the law, and refrain from killing or beating people as a result of your bottled up anger and sense of entitlement.

Re:GitLab 11 released by colechristensen on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:10AM (#17380324)
>Have you considered the possibility that people other than you do find the terms offensive, and have asked for them to be changed?

I have considered it. I would indeed be eager to speak with someone who actually was offended by the term. That is not someone who is offended because they believe it might offend a third party, someone who themselves feel hurt by the prevalence of calling a computer a "slave" or a person a "master" in this context in a way they believe is _significant_ and _important_.

I would love to talk to such a person and understand their perspective, but the point I am trying to make is I seriously doubt such a person exists.

I would also like to know if such a person would also be offended by the word "robot" which is a loanword meaning literally 'slave' in Czech.

There is a rising problem in society of people who ally themselves with straw-men and make moral issues in support of dubious claims of oppression. To be fair, it isn't a new problem. Virtue signaling or boasting of one's own moral superiority by shaming others is as old as society. In the last century in America most of this was about being a good Christian. This century we're in a transition towards greater irrelevance of religion and conservative morals, with the new most popular moral boasting point being about who can be the best liberal.

My point is not that issues of tolerance do not exist in our society, it is that increasingly, many people talking the most about tolerance seem to be doing so to further their own feelings of moral superiority and to display that to their communities. There is a disconnect between their actions and actual empathy for real people they encounter.

That is, to come back to the original point, nowhere can I find evidence of this change being attributed to empathy towards a real person who experienced grief. Just a lot of talk about people expecting the change will make people they suppose to exist feel better. That sort of empathy for the strawman is harmful because 1) it distracts from actual issues and 2) it diminishes the position of people talking about actual issues.

Re:GitLab 11 released by jasonvorhe on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:50AM (#17380069)
Thanks for that reply. ️
Re:GitLab 11 released by lloeki on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:56AM (#17380848)
> I think being inclusive means removing obstacles you might not see yourself.

Agreed, yet I'm kind of concerned about those context-free word readings and absolutisms, which can deviate into a form of thought policing, censorship, and sometimes, bigotry. While it is important to take care of the weight words carry and be humane and respectful, words do not make sense without a context thus I have no problem with a process being "slave", because it has a very precise meaning in CS/IT nowadays entirely remote to the origin and history of the word, and not entirely encapsulated by "secondary" which is somehow more fuzzy. By that metric we should probably soon stop killing processes (oh, my! parents killing their own children!) and having daemons and so on.

Trivia: for maximum shock value about how context shapes word meaning and your perception of it, in French the n-word means both "a person of African ascendance" and "ghostwriter", and for the latter synonyms fail to capture the essence of what a ghostwriter is. So, yes, "nègre" is definitely used without offense when the context of literature is made absolutely clear, although it is tentatively replaced by "prête-plume" or "écrivain fantôme".

Re:GitLab 11 released by user5994461 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:04AM (#17380305)
Which makes zero sense with any product supporting more than one secondary.
Re:GitLab 11 released by pas on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:00AM (#17380453)
Why? It makes perfect sense. It's not the primary. That's it. The master slave means the same thing. They are just labels in a replication state machine (or system), you need to know the precise meaning behind them anyway.

Maybe Leader Follower is the best (zookeeper and kafka uses it also usually any distributed system, that has dynamic election).

Re:GitLab 11 released by user5994461 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @09:55AM (#17381271)
Kafka is multi master. All nodes are taking both reads and writes.
Re:GitLab 11 released by pas on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @06:05PM (#17404336)
The topics are leader-follower though, no? (And that's the consistency unit, that matters.)
Re:GitLab 11 released by sieabahlpark on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:36AM (#17379877)
Stop being offended by software. It's electricity not a human.
Re:GitLab 11 released by conradk on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:01AM (#17380454)
I've seen master-replica being used a lot too
Re:GitLab 11 released by voxadam on Saturday June 23, 2018 @01:34AM (#17379705)
From 2003:

"Los Angeles officials have asked that manufacturers, suppliers and contractors stop using the terms 'master' and 'slave' on computer equipment, saying such terms are unacceptable and offensive."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/11/26/master.term.reut/

Re:GitLab 11 released by jobvandervoort on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:20AM (#17380351)
We got extensive feedback regarding the `Master` title. Renaming it to `Maintainer` is a relatively cheap thing to do, strengthened by the fact that it's a better reflection of the permission level: this is what Maintainers of repos will typically have.
Re:GitLab 11 released by Qwertie on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:54AM (#17380579)
IMO Master makes sense. The Master user is in full control, there is no one higher than the master.
Re:GitLab 11 released by sytse on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:00PM (#17382792)
In GitLab the owner can do more than the master/maintainer.
Re:GitLab 11 released by Qwertie on Saturday June 23, 2018 @11:27PM (#17384774)
Ah fair enough. The change makes sense then.
Re:GitLab 11 released by cyborgsnowflake on Sunday June 24, 2018 @03:58AM (#17385511)
Not really, maintainer is a more vague term implying any level of access and authority. Plus its more letters to type out forever over and over because someone theoretically was crying over this.
Re:GitLab 11 released by cup-of-tea on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:21AM (#17380176)
I miss the days when software was judged by what it did and how fast it did it and names were funny and clever.
Re:GitLab 11 released by user5994461 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:02AM (#17380297)
Master is probably the admin role with full privileges. No idea what a Maintainer is.
Re:GitLab 11 released by lloeki on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:01AM (#17380612)
Unbeknownst to you, you nailed it, because the "full privileges" role is "Owner", not "Master". "Master" really is "Maintainer".
Re:GitLab 11 released by artursapek on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:13AM (#17379503)
Master of Ceremony? Scrum Master? Master Chief? What are they on about?
Re:GitLab 11 released by chinhodado on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:16AM (#17379513)
Not to mention the default main branch of a git repo is master
Re:GitLab 11 released by tomjakubowski on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:50AM (#17379605)
Unlike the 'master'/'maintainer' role, the main branch does not directly correspond to a person.
Re:GitLab 11 released by sieabahlpark on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:37AM (#17379880)
A master/slave DB isn't a person either and look where that ended up.
Re:GitLab 11 released by berti on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:32AM (#17379867)
Which no doubt comes from the term "master copy", which has a long established, and quite precise meaning. Choosing a different meaning arbitrarily(or actually, quite deliberately) is disingenuous at best.
Re:GitLab 11 released by mappu on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:18AM (#17379829)
Hg sensibly calls the default branch `default`.
Re:GitLab 11 released by Qwertie on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:07AM (#17380315)
Git sensibly calls the master branch `master`.
Re:GitLab 11 released by BigJono on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:00AM (#17380452)
That's funny, because it's pretty common to set a 'dev' branch to default and reserve the master branch for production code.
Re:GitLab 11 released by sytse on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:17AM (#17379518)
We won't change that until git does. Of course you can customize your default branch.
Re:GitLab 11 released by NicoJuicy on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:32AM (#17380026)
Where is the slave
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Re:GitLab 11 released by martenb on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:21AM (#17379529)
Try "main"
Re:GitLab 11 released by sytse on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:16AM (#17379515)
GitLab is about removing the needless ceremony to getting your application deployed.
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Re:GitLab 11 released by hyperbovine on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:43AM (#17379896)
Calling someone master can deeply offend. Are we really at the point where we cannot distinguish between a human being and an incorporeal blob of computer code? Life is going to be really, unnecessarily challenging if you go through it bending over backwards to invent new ways to become upset.
Re:GitLab 11 released by sbr464 on Saturday June 23, 2018 @01:38AM (#17379712)
If I were a database, I would be more offended about being summed up as a cylinder icon, since I power all of the world's apps.
Re:GitLab 11 released by diN0bot on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:14AM (#17379505)
It's nice that this doesn't bother you, but if you're not going to learn about and respect how words make others feel, at least have the decency to keep your dismissal to yourself.
Re:GitLab 11 released by BigJono on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:13AM (#17380480)
I find the highly negative labelling of people as "dismissive" to be offensive. I think you need to learn some respect and decency yourself.
Re:GitLab 11 released by colechristensen on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:40AM (#17380230)
I challenge you to actually find someone who is offended by how these words were being used, not offended on behalf of someone else, but themselves felt hurt by the usage.
Re:GitLab 11 released by oblio on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:23AM (#17380007)
He mustered all the courage he could, to post using a throwaway account :)
Re:GitLab 11 released by DoreenMichele on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:26AM (#17380188)
I'm sorry, but we are going to have to ask you to use "Good Deity..." as your politically correct ungendered exclamation henceforth.

(This should really not need a sarcasm disclaimer. But maybe it does.)