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Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dyukqu on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:38PM (#17378934)
Some tangential thoughts: even though I like these popular science (physics, to be precise) books, I have hard times to imagine their writers as a real scientists. Tyson, Greene, Carroll, Kaku, Rovelli... So many writers author so many books about these hey-look!-so-fascinating! things. It looks like a bandwagon and more and more scientists (yes, physicists especially) are getting on it - like they don't have any important research to do, like they are so hopeless and desperate about the current state of physics and they stopped caring about it and found a proxy to monetize their knowledge. But hey, that's not a secret anymore - everyone knows about the crisis, from the Queen of England to the hounds of hell. Sabine Hossenfelder is a legend for me. A few years back, when I was taking a Physics101 class, even the lecturer almost begged for help after the last lecture at the end of the semester: "my fellow students, please, please, consider (to continue your career in the field of) physics. Physics is stuck. It needs new ideas, new theories, new minds. Please consider this." I was stunned. That was some real thing. I guess the fast advancement of technology in the late ~100 years made even the most brilliant minds (relatively) lazy. They gradually stopped thinking, beating their brains out year after year and here we are. No serious discovery after the quantum theory. String theory? Yeah, gazillions of dimensions - good luck with that. Higgs boson, Gravitational waves? Come on, nothing revolutionary - we're still waiting for the revolution to emerge from (upgraded!) LHC. For me, they are cleverly and beautifully marketed (minor) findings. (Maybe some of you have heard of, some (if not many) of the top universities have teams working hard doing all the "scientific-marketing" for the Nobel Prize - it's a precious prestige win in this popular world we live in).

Minds get eroded by technology by heavily relying on it. And it's getting worse and worse by the distraction caused by all the digital "life" surrounding us, pulling and tightening its ropes every day. I imagine a true scientist as a monk. S/he doesn't think about writing a pop-sci book, appearing on TV and s/he got a distantiation even for interviews about her/his latest important research/discovery. "Monks" are needed more than ever for science nowadays.

Those were my humble 2 cents.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by jerf on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:22PM (#17379343)
"I have hard times to imagine their writers as a real scientists. Tyson, Greene, Carroll, Kaku, Rovelli..."

If you mean by "real scientist" that they are doing real work that advances the field, some of them are and, yes, some of them aren't. I don't mean that as a criticism, because there is real value in being a PR person for science. (Some danger if they do it poorly, but a lot of value, too.) Hawking, for instance, was certainly a real scientist by any measure, right up until his unfortunate passing, but also did good PR and wrote some very popular books. And not to pick on him, but according to his CV [1], Neil deGrasse Tyson hasn't published a paper in a decade, and if you skip three related papers in 2007-2008, hadn't published prior to that since 1998. Doesn't mean he's not doing useful stuff, or that he wasn't at least a scientist in the past, but he's certainly not on the same sort of track as Hawking was.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by smallnamespace on Saturday June 23, 2018 @01:49AM (#17379748)
I think that science is grossly lacking in good spokespeople who are respected in the field, and it should be rewarded more within the academy, not less.

When a large fraction of the population has frankly anti-scientific beliefs and when funding for continued scientific endeavor depends on votes, science needs to continually justify and promote itself in the public eye.

Are there dangers to that? Yes. But it's worse than holing up in the ivory tower to only quietly do research.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by yashevde on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:15PM (#17383204)
I agree, but it's unlikely that they will get respect and reward within the academy. They are just as susceptible to feelings of envy as people outside the academy. You can see this manifest itself in the academy's treatment of Carl Sagan, and in the many ramblings of Murray Gell-Mann about Richard Feynman. Sure, their expositions of the science may not have been rigorous and they weren't perfect human beings, but maybe that's what it takes to popularize science and draw people in. I often see the role of science popularization as that of turned the science illiterate to literate, not the uneducated to the educated.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by HopDavid on Saturday June 23, 2018 @07:54PM (#17384131)
I would call Tyson a good spokesman for science if he had a high regard for rigor and accuracy. But he does not. http://hopsblog-hop.blogspot.com/2016/01/fact-checking-neil-...
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by glorkk on Saturday June 23, 2018 @02:01AM (#17379775)
> Minds get eroded by technology by heavily relying on it

This has been said for thousands of years. Socrates/Plato was complaining about how writing weakens the human memory.

We need to accept that human minds are limited and technology is meant to extend them. Science has advanced considerably due to computers despite the appearances.

The way out of the current “impasse” is through even more technology. We might not be able to solve all the mysteries of the universe without intelligence augmentation or superintelligent AI.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by orand on Saturday June 23, 2018 @03:10AM (#17379963)
Computers used to be bicycles for the mind. Now with things like Facebook they’re self-driving cars for the mind.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by blueprint on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:56PM (#17379257)
It's funny because as much as you recognize this, the people you describe as being needed are treated terribly not only by the establishment but those who think they are outside of it. Perhaps that explains this state.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by acqq on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:57AM (#17379618)
> humble 2 cents

Sadly, not humble, and, from my point of view, uninformed, that is, exactly what would be expected from an otherwise uninformed reader of the newspaper articles about the topics touched, especially from one not understanding how science actually works.

In reality, the "failed" fulfillment of some expectations when the best experiments up to now are performed is also what advances our knowledge, greatly, you can read, for an example, here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17363056

Look from this perspective: not only that what some theoretical scientists whose direct "expectations" came to be unconfirmed by the LHC experiments "expected" would remain just a "plain imagination" without a huge investment in extremely advanced experiments, the same would remain for any scientist having some other ideas.

We need so advanced experiments because anything else is already known. And what we know today we wouldn't without the experiments, especially such producing "unexpected" results. There's is not an actual "crisis" in science advancing, exactly by doing experiments never before done the science does advance. The experiments like LHC are indeed a precondition for any new advancement.

For every complex problem there exists a nice and easily understandable solution... that is wrong. Even the basic explanation in many articles written about the science the authors get wrong, and the casual readers get even more wrong.

The typical complaint is that the experiments "cost much" and then the wishes of some aren't "confirmed"? Well they cost peanuts compared to the investment in military.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...

"Program cost US$1.508 trillion (through 2070 in then-year dollars), US$55.1B for RDT&E, $319.1B for procurement, $4.8B for MILCON, $1123.8B for operations & sustainment (2015 estimate)"

Compare with the total budget of LHC experiment of just €7.5 billion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

You'd get surely more than 200 LHCs for just one type of a military plane.

Also, the expected cost of measuring gravitational waves from space, the way that would also give us a new and otherwise inaccessible information about the Universe is 1000 times smaller than the cost of the above military plane.

The typical complaint goes on with the idea that the if scientists work on something, and it's unconfirmed by the experiment, it was unnecessary work. That's also not true at all. Most of hypotheses of what is behind the limits of our current experiments will not be confirmed by definition. If we knew, we wouldn't need to perform the experiments.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by uh_what on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:14AM (#17380150)
Your post kind of rambles on and fails to address the point that OP is making: Physics is, in fact, stuck. It's been almost 100 years since the initial clash between classic mechanics and quantum theory, and how much closer are we to unification?

And you take an extremely condescending tone while addressing OP's lack of humility while making statements attacking him for "especially from one not understanding how science actually works."

How does science actually work? Are we supposed to follow Popper? Or Kuhn? Or Feyerabend? Should we go with logical positivism or empiricism?

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by aroberge on Saturday June 23, 2018 @06:55AM (#17380584)
> It's been almost 100 years since the initial clash between classic mechanics and quantum theory, and how much closer are we to unification?

There is no problem with, to use your words, unification of classical mechanics and quantum theory

Classical Mechanics is recovered from Quantum Mechanics in the limit of h-bar (Planck's constant) goes to zero. In our day to day experience, Planck's constant is so small as to effectively be zero. The non-intuitive effects of Quantum Mechanics occur when we probe areas where the non-zero value of Planck's constant cannot be ignored.

There has been enormous progress in the last 100+ years in understanding how the world is described by Quantum Theory. In some ways, the so-called Standard Model of Particle Physics can be seen as the crowning achievement of that work.

The only remaining question on that front is the absence of a testable theory that describe gravitation as a quantum theory. String Theory appears to be a leading candidate for this, but it has not, so far, made any testable prediction outside of what we already know from other theories.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by acqq on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:22AM (#17380178)
> Physics is, in fact, stuck

I'm trying to explain that it is not "stuck" in the sense in which the casual readers tend to perceive it. The scientists actually have what to do, and will have what to do, no problem with that. It's just that it's harder to get the budget for the kinds of investigations that extend the area of our knowledge. And that some "pet hypotheses" of some scientists remained unconfirmed.

What is currently written in the news about is that some specific hypotheses that intended to "deduct" what can be measured by the most advanced experiments humanity ever done weren't confirmed (or even more exactly, not most obviously confirmed) once the said experiments are made.

But that doesn't devalue the work done in making the hypotheses or the experiments themselves.

Or if I have to explain you "like you're five":

- For Newton to be able to make a theoretical "breakthrough" in 1700 the actual experiments before him were needed to provide all the facts from which he was able to develop his theory. Moreover, the conditions of stability in the dissemination and accessibility of the results of the experiments were needed.

- The same goes for Einstein. All the work of science between 1700 and 1915 was actually needed to make Einstein's "breakthrough," including the famous 1887 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_exper... which also didn't "confirm" the expectations of the most of the scientists of that time.

- That experiment was really immense breakthrough itself: the principles of it are even used to measure the gravitational waves today, which was achieved for the first time in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gravitational_wave_obs...

- But our discovery of the principles of electromagnetic radiation also made in 19th century was necessary too.

- In short, science needs the experiments, needs a lot of approaches from the different sides before some "breakthrough" happens and even "not confirming" expectations is a necessary part of the process.

- And even not having a new "breakthrough" of the kind the Einstein's was or of the kind of our quantum physics discoveries is also part of the process. The nature doesn't "have" to have "more unifying" laws than the ones that we already have, at least not at the level reachable by our technological limits. The nature simply is. We can learn more only by pushing the limits, making even more advanced experiments.

- At the time the experiments with the particles started, the "expectations" were exactly the opposite than now: then producing some new particles "wasn't expected." (E.g. around the middle of the 20th century the famous quip of one scientist was "who ordered that?" for the newly discovered particle -- it wasn't expected by the hypotheses of the time). Now some are "disappointed" that even newer particles don't "easily" appear. Well that is what it is. Support the science, learn how it really "works" from the actual history of actual discoveries, and if you aren't able to understand enough the discoveries themselves, do spend more energy on that before you make some claims. There are too many wrong "explanations" in the circulation, and many of those even have an agenda to be such.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dyukqu on Saturday June 23, 2018 @11:22AM (#17381669)
Hey, thank you for your time and effort for putting all the links and information on your comments.

Firstly, I'm not against experimentalists and/or experiments and the money spent for them - it's not even "peanut" compared to military projects all around the world, as you stated. What I wanna say is that (to a curious outsider) it looks like there are so many experimentalists (and physicists-turned-to-pop-sci-writers) than theorists so physics suffers from the lack of beautiful power of imagination of human mind. True, I'm not a perfectly-informed one about all the things going on in the filed, of course, but I'm not completely uninformed one too, I guess.

Secondly, I'm not a native English speaker so I thought about the tone of my comment after I finished writing it and read it couple times and asked myself "Does it sound harsh or something like that to...anyone?". So I put down those "2 cents" and "humble" things at the bottom of my comment trying to show that I'm not an insider and I'm not trying to pick on anyone personally. Pardon me if it looked like the opposite.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by acqq on Sunday June 24, 2018 @06:59PM (#17388823)
> (to a curious outsider) it looks like there are so many experimentalists (and physicists-turned-to-pop-sci-writers) than theorists so physics suffers from the lack of beautiful power of imagination of human mind.

Analyzing that claim of yours that you specially marked:

"there are so many experimentalists" ... "than theorists so physics suffers from the lack of" "power of imagination."

It is simply a "non sequitur."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

There's no any support for any claim that "more theorists" than "experimentalists" are even needed for anything, especially that such a ratio means anything about presence or "lack" of "power of imagination" in physics.

> but I'm not completely uninformed one too, I guess.

Nobody ever said "completely." However I sincerely wish you to be a little more informed about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

I really believe that once you understand that you will have more chance for your own personal improvement and I wish you luck in that. Maybe you'll even make a contribution to some important discovery. But you'll surely have to have more insight that others, being satisfied with being "not completely uninformed" to think that you even understand the basics of something won't bring you much, at least in the areas that we touch in our discussion.

Regarding the state of physics, I've already explained that nobody can even claim that there has to be anything "revolutionary" possible (in the naive sense, the way you expect it) based on the information available to us as the result of all experiments done. From my perspective, there were a lot of amazing discoveries in the last any N years of physics, and they are always result of the new information we experimentally obtain. But we already know so much, and measured so much with such an astonishing precision that there is not even place for some "big" changes affecting the formulas we already have. All better measurements will need always more investment from us, and will involve always the areas of the universe that are less affecting us directly (in the physical sense, I don't speculate about the state of mind).

Just to get you started thinking: some ancient Greek and Hellenistic scientists (who at that time weren't called so) already quite correctly knew how distant is the Moon measured in the number of Earth radii more than 2000 years ago. Do you know that simple number? Were you aware that if was possible to measure that at that time? Would you be able today to repeat that measurement? How much effort would you have to personally invest to repeat all the steps? Second, one Hellenistic scientist again more than 2000 years ago measured the radius of Earth also amazingly precise. Would you be able to repeat all the steps of his experiment? Are you able even to figure them out just by your own thinking?

The humanity knows about the telescopes only for 400 years. Galileo was one of the first scientists using it to figure more about the universe, but he also made the experiments on Earth, being among the first who properly described the properties of gravitation. Newton published his "Principia" only 100 years after Galileo's "On Motion" and only 80 years after the discovery of telescope and based on the enough observations happening even before the telescope existed: Tycho Brahe was the first scientist on the west who measured precisely enough the movements of the planets to make Newton's conclusions even possible, and his measurements were again available only some 80 years before Newton's "Principia." Not to mention that Kepler was already able to figure out the formulas nobody before him had based on these very measurements.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by wallace_f on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:46PM (#17379430)
Reminds me of:

>I have been thinking of how very gently I have always been dealt with. I have never so much as had a violent shove in my entire life

-Maxwell

Also: do we need monks in other places? In the courts--removed from the carrots and sticks society can throw at them?

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dmfdmf on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:57PM (#17379262)
The crisis in physics is due to Kant. As long as physicists are disdainful of philosophy the crisis and deterioration will continue. They are Kantians and don't even know it.

Ayn Rand identified Kant's error in his Critique of Pure Reason and destroyed his program, she rejected Hume's rank skepticism (which Kant was answering) and showed Descartes how to validate reason (i.e. to be certain) without being omniscient. Descartes was the intellectual who started this ball rolling by turning reason unto itself and asking how does it work. He was not up to the task and injected a crude circularity at the base of reason, i.e. "I think therefore I am", which Rand identified and fixed but she is now completely ignored.

Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by russellbeattie on Saturday June 23, 2018 @04:13AM (#17380142)
Ayn Rand? Are you serious? The woman was a demagogue, a hypocrite, and a racist homophobe among her other charming qualities. Her "philosophy" of selfishness and greed was based on a worldview of hatred, suspicion, and class warfare, and even then is self-contradictory in many ways and completely meritless in every way. Rand's legacy is one of rationalization for the misguided, unethical, immoral actions of self-centered jackasses who all think they are the ubermensch. The reason she is completely ignored is because she was a horrible human being, who did nothing but make the world a worse place.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dmfdmf on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:34PM (#17381998)
You should read her book "Philosophy who needs it".
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by woodandsteel on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:20PM (#17379332)
I agree that Descartes, Hume, and Kant were wrong. However, modern scientists are not influenced by them. Their own views are much closer to Pragmatism (which is not surprising given that two of the three founders of Pragmatism, namely Peirce and James, were professional scientists).
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dmfdmf on Saturday June 23, 2018 @01:48AM (#17379742)
Popper/Kuhn are both derivatives of Kant and very popular in physics when physicists grasp for a philosophy to justify their epistemology. Mach, also a Kantian, was Einstein's pole star but to Einstein's credit defended realism contra Mach's ideas.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by woodandsteel on Tuesday June 26, 2018 @10:13PM (#17405322)
That's because they haven't studied philosophy. I have a background in the sciences, and what I observed is that, in terms of how they think when they are actually doing science, as opposed to explaining it to people who are not scientists, they work out of a set of assumptions pretty much the same as Pragmatism.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by dmfdmf on Thursday June 28, 2018 @01:20AM (#17414266)
I agree that Pragmatism is also fairly common in the sciences. But I don't considered Pragmatism to be a philosophy, it is a rejection of principles on principle so it is a dead-end. What is "shut-up and calculate" if not Pragmatism which has dominated physics for 100 years and has run its course. By holding philosophy in disdain and not studying it the physicists leave themselves vulnerable (due to ignorance) and absorb the bad philosophies I mentioned by osmosis.
Re:Carlo Rovelli on the ‘greatest remaining mystery’: The na... by woodandsteel on Friday June 29, 2018 @09:47PM (#17429068)
> But I don't considered Pragmatism to be a philosophy, it is a rejection of principles on principle so it is a dead-end.

Huh? Philosophy books all list Pragmatism as a major philosophy, and it is far more elaborate than that. "Shut up and calculate" is not at all what the philosophies of Dewey, Peirce and James are about, it is far more elaborate.

>By holding philosophy in disdain and not studying it the physicists leave themselves vulnerable (due to ignorance) and absorb the bad philosophies I mentioned by osmosis.

I am referring to how they actually practice science, not their possibly quite inaccurate philosophical explanations of what they are doing. I am sure you are familiar with the phenomenon of someone loudly claiming they follow a certain set of principles, but then when you observe them you see they are actually doing something quite different.

What I am saying is that if you observe how scientists actually do science, it fits the philosophical principles of Pragmatism, whether the scientists realize it or not. And I am saying that as someone with a background in both the sciences and philosophy.