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Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by Mister_Snuggles on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:13AM (#17374084)
One of the banks I used "updated" their iOS app and used Material Design. It's infuriating.

The thing that bothers me the most is the "switches" (3rd example here[0]). My first thought upon updating the app was "Why did they reinvent the toggle switch when iOS has a perfectly good one built in?" Being bothered by this is irrational, yet I'm bothered by it all the same.

I also find the ripple effect[1] when pressing things to be infuriating. Just do the action I've asked, don't do this animation and delay the action by half a second. Again, this is somewhat irrational, but it still bothers me.

Perhaps the thing that bugs me the most is that it feels like I have a really well-designed Android app on my phone. The problem though is that I have an iPhone. If I wanted to use Android apps, I would have bought an Android phone.

[0] https://material.io/design/components/selection-controls.htm...

[1] https://material.io/design/interaction/states.html#pressed

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by bhauer on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:37AM (#17374255)
> I also find the ripple effect[1] when pressing things to be infuriating. Just do the action I've asked, don't do this animation and delay the action by half a second. Again, this is somewhat irrational, but it still bothers me.

It is not irrational to want your device and the software you use on it to be as high-performance as possible. In my opinion, unless we're talking about a game, software should always avoid wasting the user's time, no matter how briefly. Of course, if an animation is playing while something else is happening, that is acceptable. But in many cases, applications wait for the animations to complete (because it's "only" 300 milliseconds) before proceeding with the requested action. Disrespecting the user's time is disrespecting the user, full stop.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by reaperducer on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:36AM (#17374785)
Yes, and no.

While nobody likes excessive animation, it is very important to let the user know their input was received. It's why the cursor changes on mouseover. It's how you know if the app is crashed, or merely processing something you requested.

I've seen a million times in UX testing where ordinary people go click... wait... click click click click click because they didn't receive any feedback to an action.

At one time this was one of Apple's UI priorities — feedback. Unfortunately, Apple has gotten away from a lot of its core UI values without a strong personality to enforce them.

>full stop

In the real world, nothing is ever "full stop." You should purge that phrase from your lexicon.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by etatoby on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:57PM (#17376436)
> I've seen a million times in UX testing where ordinary people go click... wait... click click click click click because they didn't receive any feedback to an action.

Not just ordinary people. I see the same behavior daily on older tech people, who fail to notice the (ever shrinking) browser loading indicator.

Honestly, it seems like Safari is the only browser that still cares to show a visible loading indicator, that takes up the whole address bar in a bright blue color, last time I checked.

Chrome and Firefox seem bent on a war to see who can infuriate their users the most, by removing one of the most important pieces of feedback on which the web experience is based.

As a result, we (the devs) need to add a ton of server-side checks to discard the multiple clicks that users invariably make, because they can't see that their first click went through.

Some times I'd like to know what the browser people smoke.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by jonreem on Friday June 22, 2018 @05:18PM (#17377455)
It's not like you can just skip writing those checks even if the browser indicator was more visible, people will still spam click and you still need to handle it correctly.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by kpil on Saturday June 23, 2018 @05:52AM (#17380433)
I don't know about 'older' devs, in my experience just about everyone else except the developer who wrote a particular slow function will spam-click if nothing happens after a little while when clicking on something.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by bhauer on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:05PM (#17375571)
> While nobody likes excessive animation, it is very important to let the user know their input was received. It's why the cursor changes on mouseover. It's how you know if the app is crashed, or merely processing something you requested.

I said, "Of course, if an animation is playing while something else is happening, that is acceptable." Yes, play an animation while actual work is happening. That provides the feedback you are describing, which is useful if and when the application cannot respond to user input immediately.

However, my point was that many applications, due to laziness of designers and/or programmers, play an animation and then begin to execute the work requested. The facile argument made by these designers is that the animation is relatively brief—say 300ms—so it's not a "big deal." But I contend that delaying the initiation of requested execution is disrespecting the user's time, regardless of how long the delay is.

To reiterate: beginning the work effort and then concurrently playing an animation is good and should be encouraged. Playing an animation to completion and then beginning the work effort is bad and should be avoided.

The theoretical ideal is to respond in 0ms. If the work takes 50ms, it's best to start the work immediately then start playing an interruptible animation. The user may see a couple frames of the animation. Far worse to play a 300ms animation to completion, then start the 50ms of work.

> I've seen a million times in UX testing where ordinary people go click... wait... click click click click click because they didn't receive any feedback to an action.

Agreed! While doing lengthy operations, play an animation and disable the button. But don't delay beginning the work until after the animation completes, even if that animation is only 300ms.

> In the real world, nothing is ever "full stop." You should purge that phrase from your lexicon.

I said "Disrespecting the user's time is disrespecting the user, full stop."

I stand by the decisiveness of that statement. In my opinion, disrespecting the user's time is equivalent to disrespecting the user. I will retain the phrase in my lexicon, thank you.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by chrisweekly on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:54PM (#17376847)
The RAIL* model for user-perceived performance does a really nice job of distilling rules of thumb for latency into a handful of specific metrics / perf targets.

*https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/performance/r...

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by zeroisnowfour on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:40PM (#17377162)
of the Doherty threshold? 400ms
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by yycom on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:04PM (#17379282)
Seeing as this subthread has already derailed into a discussion of expression, I'll take this opportunity to express my disrespect for the new trend of using the word "disrespect" as a verb.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by WorldMaker on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:49AM (#17374909)
> In the real world, nothing is ever "full stop." You should purge that phrase from your lexicon.

Not to get further off topic, but: Huh? "Full stop" just means "end of message". It's an amusing leftover from telegraph technologies that people sometimes use for emphasis, but it doesn't have a literal meaning more than just "end of message".

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by kickopotomus on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:17PM (#17375142)
It is interesting how the phrase's meaning has transformed. Nowadays people generally use it to add emphasis such that the previous statement is an absolute truth with no valid argument to the contrary.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by jrochkind1 on Friday June 22, 2018 @02:31PM (#17376191)
end of statement. nothing more to be said. no exceptions or reasonable argument to the contrary.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by bhauer on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:08PM (#17375591)
Yep, it's a bit of verbal color to add emphasis to a statement. Much like declaring things that are actually quite ordinary and did not fill you with awe but are otherwise positive as "awesome."
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by reaperducer on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:55AM (#17374963)
In this context, I took "full stop" to mean "end of discussion." As if to dismiss all dissenting opinions and stifle further discussion.

As for the telegraph use, I'm aware of that. I have a background in amateur radio and in college a crusty old engineer taught me morse code to communicate over the maintenance department's secret building-to-building campus telegraph network.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by rahimnathwani on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:44PM (#17378478)
It sounds strange to hear 'full stop' described as a leftover from telegraph technologies. To me, it's just what I call the dot at the end of a sentence.

In American English, 'period' is used in the same ways (indicating the end of a sentence and, like in the above case, to indicate that a matter is closed for further discussion).

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by benatkin on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:13PM (#17375628)
It's the same as ending a statement with "period." As in, "We connect people. Period." said by a Facebook exec to justify their use of dark patterns. It's for emphasis.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by antod on Friday June 22, 2018 @05:35PM (#17377591)
Not only that, "period" is the American English word for the very same punctuation mark the other side of the English speaking world calls a "full stop".
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by wrigby on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:26PM (#17376643)
Microsoft's UI toolkit in Windows 95/98/2000/ME/NT4/XP did a fine job of letting me know that I clicked on a button, and it added no latency to the interaction.

On mobile, this is more difficult - the user's finger is obscuring whatever button they hit from view, so I kind of understand the "ripple" after the button is released (and ostensibly the user's finger has moved away, thus allowing them to actually see the ripple).

Still, unnecessary delay is infuriating on desktop apps. I agree feedback is important, but I don't accept the premise that latency is required to provide feedback.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by themarkn on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:07AM (#17374504)
For me I'm ok with this in certain situations. If the time taken increases the clarity about what is going on or what has just happened (in the case of the ripple effect confirming a button was clicked or tapped), I don't find it disrespectful. I'm more irritated by flashes of loaders or messages that disappears before we can evaluate whether they are relevant. Different strokes, I guess.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by Benjamin_Dobell on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:22AM (#17374655)
I agree, like most things, it's contextual. Making a user wait for a ripple effect every button press is ridiculous. Mind you, that most certainly isn't part of the Material Design spec.

However, if I've performed a destructive action, that is perhaps only reversible temporarily, then I absolutely don't mind being briefly interrupted to see a "trash" animation.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by lawrenceong on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:09PM (#17375075)
Cannot agree more. one of the default settings I used to set my windows computers on is "adjust for best performance". that used to really remove all sorts of nonsensical animations. I would suggest UI designers include this option in their apps. the first 2 times the menu bar progressively shows its items may look cute, but after 500 times it's really an annoyance.

Another pet peeve I have is when web pages shows very little content because: 1. the fonts are too big 2. there are too many sidebar (top/bottom/etc) items 3. the graphics or icons take too much room

i have some ideas about optimization but will reserve that rant for another time.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by manigandham on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:35PM (#17376721)
Yes, this is why the iPhone keeps getting hardware that's double the speed but the actual UX has remains the same.

My iPhone 8 still takes me just as frustratingly long to navigate apps as it did on my iPhone 4, because there's no way to skip the useless animations and effects.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by j45 on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:21PM (#17375188)
Minimizing UI pageantry is critical when growing through the 1st to 1000th use of an interface.

I'm not here to work for my device, it's here to work for me.

Interface feedback on making a selection is possible in many ways.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by sudhirj on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:23PM (#17375209)
One way to give a user feedback that they’ve tapped something without wasting their time is a to start an effect onTouch, but don’t necessarily wait for it to finish all the way if the you get a touchComplete. That way the user knows what they’re tapping on, and if they’re making a mistake they’ll move their finger to a safer zone before lifting. And no extra time is wasted.
Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by Mister_Snuggles on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:14PM (#17375641)
The ripple effect doesn't end when I finish the touch though, the app waits for it to complete the animation before doing the thing that I asked. That's the infuriating part.

Another thing that really bothers me: They've got all kinds of iOS-specific stuff in the app - Apple Pay, 3D Touch previews, Touch ID for login. They clearly went to a lot of effort to support stuff that's specific to Apple devices, why didn't they just go the extra mile and actually make it look and feel like an iOS application?

This is one of the big five Canadian banks. Their net income is over $1B every quarter. Surely they can afford to hire an iOS dev to do the app natively.

Re:Show HN: Material Dashboard – Free Admin for Bootstrap 4,... by bryanrasmussen on Saturday June 23, 2018 @12:48AM (#17379596)
I'm wondering if the dislike of animation an the delay by half a second thing is more specific to programmers/highly technical people. Meaning that if your app is tech focused it should avoid animation as much as possible.