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Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by bad_user on Friday June 22, 2018 @03:57AM (#17372278)
Google is at this point not just some US company, but a multi-national one. I'm not a US citizen, so for me the US having a strong military isn't necessarily in my best interests, depending on circumstance.

So what stops me, as a Google customer (which I am), to stop doing business with them, given that I see proof after proof that they are working against my interests?

This is the same problem as with the Snowden leaks. I don't care if Americans feel more safe with the NSA secretly watching their emails via gag orders, if my privacy as a non-US citizen is being violated, therefore at this point absolutely all US companies are suspects, starting with a negative ranking in my book; at this point I always prefer European ones. Also the usual arguments that countries collaborate with each other is bullshit, because in the EU I can sue companies, or my government, for cheap too, whereas in the US I have no rights.

And if you find that acceptable, then maybe balkanizing the Internet isn't such a bad thing after all, lets start with ICANN.

> There's also a real chance (though perhaps small) that an industry-wide refusal to cooperate with the US military could have disastrous consequences for the world

There's also a real chance that I might get hit by a brick and die tomorrow, yet that doesn't stop me from going out.

If you don't have an assessment done by experts of what might actually happen, then such arguments are bullshit.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by greyman on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:05AM (#17372306)
> I'm not a US citizen, so for me the US having a strong military isn't necessarily in my best interests, depending on circumstance.

Yes, that's exactly the problem. What if in the future, my country and USA will be enemies? It is not very probable, but so wasn't a prospect of war in Ukraine, for example. You just don't know how things will develop, and if a company want's to be global, it shouldn't directly support a military of a specific country.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by slavik81 on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:11AM (#17372823)
That's not how things are done today. Military technology is shared widely among allies. If we cannot trust our friends, we are doomed.

There might be national secret-sauce here or there, but the major military contractors are all international. Lots of projects involve R&D spread across multiple nations. Things mostly get dicey when looking at nations that are too unstable to trust (Egypt, Pakistan, etc.), or those that are current rivals (Russia, China).

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by oldcynic on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:09AM (#17373052)
Isn't it the case that the only nation getting an F35 comparable to the US version is the UK? It's unclear if even that version is the same. Everyone else seems to be getting some sort of F35 lite export version, including Australia, Italy and possibly others.

Is that trusting one's friends or are they too unstable to trust?

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by aurailious on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:20AM (#17374135)
The US generally does not export its most advanced defense technology. Almost all fighter aircraft exports over the past century have have limitations on its equipment. Generally the receiving country replaces some equipment with their own domestic variants. Israel and Japan do this with their US fighter aircraft.

Trusting an ally with any version of the F-35 is a big thing. The base F-35 is still going to be a very great fighter aircraft.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by engi_nerd on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:43PM (#17377175)
There is no such thing as an "export version" of the F-35. All F-35s have the same installed mission systems, the same avionics, and the same mission performance. This was one of the big goals of the program -- to give the US, allies, and other friendly nations a common, capable, 5th generation strike aircraft.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by oldcynic on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:29PM (#17378022)
That's funny, I've read the claim multiple times in the media amongst the controversy over its procurement. Not least because it took years for the US:UK dispute over technology transfer to resolve during the Bush+Blair years.

Even since resolution there's unprecedented restrictions of maintenance in RAF service, requiring some major components returned to BAe in the US when BAe are a British based company.

I'm on my way out but a quick search seems to show Israel as having the least restricted version, which is a surprise: https://www.wired.com/2016/05/israel-can-customize-americas-...

Some discussion of the Blair era issues: https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/uk-warns-usa-over-itar-...

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by engi_nerd on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:45PM (#17378486)
The major components returned to BAE in the US are probably related to the AN/ALQ-239 Electronic Warfare suite, which is made by BAE's US subsidiary. BAE UK does not directly control its US subsidiary.

Just because Israel is allowed to add additional equipment to the F-35 doesn't mean anything in terms of the F-35 itself. Which, as I said, is the same as everyone else's.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by greyman on Friday June 22, 2018 @06:34AM (#17372908)
But Google has customers also into those rivals countries. I would prefer military to hire their own people, and don't touch normal companies.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by JustSomeNobody on Friday June 22, 2018 @08:56AM (#17373583)
What if in the future your country needs the US military?
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by sidr on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:46AM (#17373896)
What if in the future their country ia attacked by the US military for some bullshit made up claims of WMDs? If you weight the outcomes with their probabilities of occuring, they believe that the US military is a net negative. You just have a different cost function and a different pdf of certain events occuring.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by salvar on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:52AM (#17373948)
Isn't the point here that there are too many what-ifs to state that a strong US military is good for everyone?
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by walshemj on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:04AM (#17373032)
Sorry to rain on your parade Google is a "US" company - just because its sets up in Europe to get access to cheap labour and as a lobbying tool "look we employ x people in your country" - doesn't make any difference.

Eu companies do the same German pro union at home hire dodgy American union busters in the UK for example

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by pofilat on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:54AM (#17374954)
How many thousands of employees, including executive roles, does a company need before it is an international company?
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by fixermark on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:03PM (#17375557)
Legally, absolutely. If the US declared war on all of Europe tomorrow, there's no meaningful question what Google would do.

... but practically and on the ground, the Google employee base is large and international enough that there may very well be employees with friends or relatives in US military hot-zones where the US has not successfully demonstrated sufficient care about civilian casualties. Their desire to only work for the company in relatively peaceful times is pretty understandable.

Nobody wants to wake up one morning and realize they're an IBM employee in 1940.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by AndrewKemendo on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:48AM (#17374347)
Google isn't the first or last MNC

Does anyone not think of Toyota as Japanese? General Electric is certainly an MNC, but they are quite proudly "American" as is Volkswagen proudly "German."

So, it's silly to think that MNC's, by virtue of their MNC nature, jettison their national allegiance in the ultimate case.

If you want to make the case that they should be truly "multi-national", then we're off to my favorite possible dystopian world, where a corporation becomes a sovereign entity with the power of a state, which is the ultimate conclusion of such thinking.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by trophycase on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:57PM (#17375516)
We're already getting there with stuff like Foxconn city and private security teams.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by chibg10 on Friday June 22, 2018 @04:12AM (#17372337)
>Google is at this point not just some US company, but a multi-national one. I'm not a US citizen, so for me the US having a strong military isn't necessarily in my best interests, depending on circumstance.

A multi-national company is still responsible to multiple nations in differing amounts though, no? It shouldn't mean "responsible to no one." And America quite clearly should have some significant claim on Google, even if it isn't all of it (or necessarily even a majority). Furthermore, most of the those non-American countries that Google should be accountable to (i.e. most democratic countries and most developed countries... as that is from where it draws revenue and employees) rely, in large part, on the US military for their own national security.

>There's also a real chance that I might get hit by a brick and die tomorrow, yet that doesn't stop me from going out.

This misses the point entirely--which was that whether or not the US military is good or bad for the world is a complicated and difficult question to answer. At the very least, this is clear from the large number of democratic countries who have chosen to mostly rely on the US military for their own national security. So the apparent certainty in the moral correctness of those refusing to work on technology for it is unjustified.

Again, I'm not saying that these employees are necessarily making the incorrect moral decision. I'm saying that the conversations on this topic seem to overlook a lot of the ethical difficulties associated with their choice.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by smts on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:14AM (#17373070)
Im sorry but google isn't just active in what you call demcratic countries and which country in Europe does the USA protect, the Ukraine? The last military interaction my home country had with the USA, was be accidentally beeing bombed in WW2. And you did great in protecting the dictatorships south of you, really great. So many democracies had to fall, judt because they were left leaning.

You've been using your military the get cheap resources in the midfle east, ever since the cold war.

So I dont want to work for such a military, even in proxy.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by Nimitz14 on Friday June 22, 2018 @08:36AM (#17373447)
Balkans.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by Atlantium on Friday June 22, 2018 @07:27AM (#17373122)
"who have chosen to mostly rely on the US military for their own national security"

I often wonder if statements like this are disingenuous. The US military "polices" parts of the world where American interests lie; ie Natural resources, supply chains, potential markets for American companies to exploit. When you say countries "choose" American military protection you are not considering the considerable economic pressure America can leverage when it wants something you have. In developing countries this can be a difficult choice too. By not spending on military you can spend elsewhere. Even if that means resources end up in the hands of politicians directly; which is no different to any first world country.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by Nimitz14 on Friday June 22, 2018 @08:34AM (#17373435)
Just because some people who don't know any better say the US invaded Iraq for oil does not make it true. And ignoring Iraq, did the US intervene in the Balkans because of natural resources or potential markets? Or in Somalia? Please try and put in a little more effort into your thought process.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by pofilat on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:57AM (#17374982)
The US occupied Iraq for over a decade, and installed a new government. The US spent a little time in the Balkans and Somalia and then gave up. There's a difference.
Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by 394549 on Friday June 22, 2018 @01:29PM (#17375747)
> The US occupied Iraq for over a decade, and installed a new government. The US spent a little time in the Balkans and Somalia and then gave up. There's a difference.

A similar difference to the one that motivated its even longer occupation of the oil-less Afghanistan.

Re:Google Engineers Refused to Build Security Tool to Win Mi... by trophycase on Friday June 22, 2018 @12:55PM (#17375498)
So removing Saddam and stabilizing the power vacuum aren't justifications for spending 10 years?